Author Topic: What Happened To My Convict?!?  (Read 15172 times)

Offline JAP

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Re: What Happened To My Convict?!?
« Reply #27 on: Saturday 05 November 05 08:46 GMT (UK) »
Hi Donna,

Don't work too hard - genealogy is far more important!

As you say, it's nice to have something which - rightly or wrongly - looks fairly definite.

The lady I mentioned before (who married an ex-convict late in life) was also a teller of porkies.

She arrived in 1848 and, at 16, she married a Mr Cooper in Melbourne in 1852 and seems to have had two, or possibly three, children with him - the first one died as an infant.

At some stage (after the second or the third child - still not sure as, though the second child was always a Cooper, the third child was always known as Dooley) she took up with a Mr Dooley (we think Mr Cooper survived until 1879).  There is no birth record of her next child (a daughter Alice) but, at the birth of a son in 1862, she lied that she had married Mr Dooley at Kangaroo in 1859, and said that they already had a daughter Alice - this latter probably the truth given that Alice was always known as Dooley.  There is no birth record of the next daughter Clara Dooley.  Next, in 1866, came Isabella - but this time the fussy Registrar was having no porkies.  Isabella (though always known as Dooley) was registered under her mother's maiden name and also under her mother's married name of Cooper; and though no father was entered on the birth cert, it was annotated "Informant says she has lived apart from her Husband for 9 years last past".  Next child, Rebecca Dooley in 1868 was registered as Dooley and this time her mother lied that she had married Mr Dooley at Creswick Ck in 1856.  Then came Hannah Dooley in 1870 by which time her mother said that she had married Mr Dooley at Melbourne in 1852.  The births of the next three Dooley children haven't been found.  There is, of course, nowhere any marriage between my lady and Mr Dooley (he died in 1880).

By the time my lady died in 1911, there is just one marriage mentioned on her death cert - another fabrication as it says that she married the ex-convict at age 21 in Castlemaine (yes, she married him in Castlemaine, but it was in 1889 when she was about 54!

Frustrating and all as it is for us, one can surely sympathise with their wish not to let the stickybeak Govt official know all their business ;)

JAP   

Offline sparrett

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Re: What Happened To My Convict?!?
« Reply #28 on: Saturday 05 November 05 22:03 GMT (UK) »
Morning Friends,
Hot day in Melbourne.  Nice barbeque weather.

The baby Eliza (on Alfred's cert.) also shows in Saff Wel. as being born and dying in 1843, so she was Phoebe's too.

Look, I'm probably clutching at straws here, but does anyone think it is worthwhile tracing through Joshua after his marriage to Elizabeth Lewis.  Was she of child-bearing age?  The names of any chn. or what part of Victoria he subsequently lived in might  reveal clues as to whether he is the Joshua we are talking about or whether the deceased George is our man.

I also understand how incredibly disjointed and hard to read these old records are, so up to you.
Donna, this is pure curiosity, but are there any wittnesses to the marriage?  Where in Melb. did it take place?

Jap, you convict ancestor was an IMPOSSIBLE woman! But I enjoyed her story.
Sue
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline JAP

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Re: What Happened To My Convict?!?
« Reply #29 on: Sunday 06 November 05 02:03 GMT (UK) »
Hi All,

Sue, this is trivial but, re Eliza, I didn’t think that the Saffron Waldon one fitted.  Partly because she is not in the right order for the names on Alfred William’s birth cert but also because she was born (and died) Sep qtr 1843 and this would not fit with Henry who was born Jun qtr 1843.  But of course FreeBMD is not complete and, without the certificates, it is just guesswork.

As an aide-memoire to myself I’ll try to set down events (and possible events) and add a couple of additional ones – hope it’s correct.

1836 – Thomas ALBON, a convict, married, arrives in Australia on the ‘Lady Nugent’

1841 – Joshua JUDD marries Phoebe MANSFIELD, Dec qtr, Saffron Walden
1843 – Henry JUDD born, Jun qtr, Saffron Walden
1844 – Henry JUDD dies, Sep qtr, Saffron Walden
1845 – Joseph JUDD born, Sep qtr, Saffron Walden
1848 – Sarah Ann JUDD born, Sep qtr, Saffron Walden
1848 – JUDD family arrives in Australia in November on the ‘Royal George’; George (34), Phoebe (26), Joseph (4), Sarah Ann (Infant)
18?? – Eliza (true parentage unknown) born; she dies before the birth of Alfred William ALBON in 1863
18?? – David (true parentage unknown) born; he dies before the birth of Alfred William ALBON in 1863
1852-55 – Emma (true parentage unknown) born; the later birthdate is from her age of 8 on birth cert of Alfred William ALBON, earlier date from her age of 62 at death in 1914.
1856 – A George JUDD dies
1860 – John Thomas ALBON is born and dies in Footscray
1863 – Alfred William ALBON is born and dies in Footscray
1863 – A Joshua JUDD marries an Elizabeth LEWIS
1868 – Thomas ALBON (born Bedfordshire) marries Phoebe JUDD nee MANSFIELD (born Essex); Thomas is described as a bachelor and Phoebe as a widow with a date in that column of 1851.  Thomas says he has no children; Phoebe says she has 3 living and 5 dead.
1871 – Joseph ALBON (born Essex) marries Jane STANNARD (born London); they have a son b Melb N, died Carl.
1872 – Thomas ALBON, age 56, parents unknown dies
1873 – Emma ALBON (born Footscray) marries John STEWART; they have children in Footscray
1873 – Sarah Ann ALBON (born Essex) marries John MONK; they have children in Footscray
1877 – Joseph Judd ALBON (born Essex) marries Harriet YOUNG; they have children in Prahran and Melb
1878 – Phoebe ALBON (born Essex) marries Richard William WEARING (born Greenwich)
1885 – Phoebe WEARING dies, age 64, father Mansfield Jno, mother Abigail, at Footscray
1886 – Sarah Ann MONK dies, age 37, father Alton (sic) Thos, mother Phoebe Albon MANSFIELD, at Footscray
1914 – Emma STEWART dies, age 62, father given as Thomas Albon and mother as Phoebe.
1917 - Jos Judd ALBON dies, age 72, parents Thomas ALBON and Phoebe MANSFIELD, at Cheltenham

So we have the death of Thomas ALBON, we have the death of Phoebe MANSFIELD later JUDD later ALBON later WEARING, we have the death of Sarah Ann JUDD aka ALBON later STEWART, we have the death of Emma (father unproven) known as ALBON later MONK, and now we have (later post from Genni) the death of Joseph JUDD aka ALBON.  I don’t seem to have the death of Joseph JUDD aka ALBON.

However, the most important thing for Donna, whose interest is in Thomas ALBON, is whether or not Emma is a biological child of Thomas’s.  That doesn't seem to be something we can find out?  Also, of course, whether Thomas fathered any children between his arrival in 1836 and whenever it was that he took up with Phoebe...

JAP

 

Offline gennig

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Re: What Happened To My Convict?!?
« Reply #30 on: Sunday 06 November 05 03:17 GMT (UK) »
Hi Everyone

Nicely summarised Jap.

I'll just add Josh Judd ALBON died 1917 Cheltenham  Aged 72 Ref: 900

Parents stated as Thomas ALBON and Phoebe MANSFIELD

The significant thing is Joseph knew there was a Judd connection.
 
My only thought is for them to go up as ALBON'S it would seem the name would have been used from a very young age.  Joseph especially as he was 4 when they arrived.
It would appear they stayed in the Footscray area from the beginning, if she changed partners 7 or 8 years down the track the children would still have been known by their original surname.
There are school records held at the PROV, I'll see if I can find anything.

Cheers
Genni
 


*******************************************
All census look up transcriptions are Crown copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

*******************************************
Surnames:
Armstrong, Gray, Greco, Lambden, Le Busque, Beaton, Carron, Pitt, Gould
Areas:
Victoria, Tasmania, Hampshire, Berkshire, Yorkshire, Fermanagh, Glamorgan


Offline Ratty

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Re: What Happened To My Convict?!?
« Reply #31 on: Sunday 06 November 05 07:16 GMT (UK) »
Hi everyone
Answer to Sue's question about whereabouts of Thomas's marriage and witnesses......witnesses were Joel Mansfield and Susanna Mansfield, obviously some sort of family connection to Phoebe.  Place.....well that's a little harder...very difficult to make out.....I don't know any of the places around the Melbourne area but it looks as if it starts with an F or maybe a K.  Short name don't think it's Footscray unless who ever wrote it down shortened it but there doesn't seem to be a Y at the end.
Nice summary JAP...Emma's marriage certificate gives her age as 20 in 1873 so that would put her birth c 1853.
Do any of you think it's worth me buying the marriage certificate for Phoebe Mansfield and Joshua Judd or any of the children?  Don't want to waste money but if it would help clear anything up then it might be worth it.
It will be interesting Genni to see if you find anything in the school records.
Donna
ALBONE - Bedfordshire and Medina area, New York State, USA, SAMUELS - Bedfordshire, COTTINGHAM - Huntingdonshire and Leicerstershire, CLAY - Huntingdonshire and Northamptonshire, ASPITAL - Northamptonshire, SMITH, RATCLIFF - Staffordshire, BERESFORD - Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire, WHYLER Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire, VINE- Kent and Sussex, BUTLER - Norfolk, GEORGE - Norfolk and Northumberland, JOHNSON in Great Yarmouth, Norfolk

Offline JAP

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Re: What Happened To My Convict?!?
« Reply #32 on: Sunday 06 November 05 07:45 GMT (UK) »
Hi Donna,

If I were you, before shelling out more money on certificates, I'd be waiting for
a) response from the Tasmanian Archives,
and
b) any information which the meticulous Genni might find from school records.

I guess I might be a bit interested in Phoebe's death cert - though no doubt it will be as misleading as so much of her history and/or everything she's ever said!  Perhaps a descendant of hers might have it?

Meantime you could always upload the place from the marriage cert and let us all have some fun deciphering it.

With this family it's hard to know what to believe so who knows about Emma  - was she born ca 1852, ca 1853, ca 1855 none of which is too far apart.  And, as they say, it's a wise child that knows its own father!

I for one certainly look forward to more info especially, firstly, that from the Tasmanian Archives.

Best regards,

JAP


Offline Ratty

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Re: What Happened To My Convict?!?
« Reply #33 on: Sunday 06 November 05 08:01 GMT (UK) »
Good advice JAP
In the meantime here is the marriage place
ALBONE - Bedfordshire and Medina area, New York State, USA, SAMUELS - Bedfordshire, COTTINGHAM - Huntingdonshire and Leicerstershire, CLAY - Huntingdonshire and Northamptonshire, ASPITAL - Northamptonshire, SMITH, RATCLIFF - Staffordshire, BERESFORD - Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire, WHYLER Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire, VINE- Kent and Sussex, BUTLER - Norfolk, GEORGE - Norfolk and Northumberland, JOHNSON in Great Yarmouth, Norfolk

Offline Ratty

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Re: What Happened To My Convict?!?
« Reply #34 on: Sunday 06 November 05 08:04 GMT (UK) »
Don't think that worked properly....never added an image before.
Donna
ALBONE - Bedfordshire and Medina area, New York State, USA, SAMUELS - Bedfordshire, COTTINGHAM - Huntingdonshire and Leicerstershire, CLAY - Huntingdonshire and Northamptonshire, ASPITAL - Northamptonshire, SMITH, RATCLIFF - Staffordshire, BERESFORD - Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire, WHYLER Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire, VINE- Kent and Sussex, BUTLER - Norfolk, GEORGE - Norfolk and Northumberland, JOHNSON in Great Yarmouth, Norfolk

Offline JAP

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Re: What Happened To My Convict?!?
« Reply #35 on: Sunday 06 November 05 08:05 GMT (UK) »
OFF TOPIC
Sue,

Isabella wasn't a convict - that was the husband she married late in life.

And she was my children's ancestor not mine.

I have no convicts anywhere unfortunately.  Nor do my children - though they came close.  Their GgUncle (who married one of Isabella's daughters) was sentenced in 1848 to 7 years transportation to VDL for forging and uttering.  A respected tenant farmer of Fife from a long line of respected tenant farmers on both sides and married to the daughter of a similar chap from Rothesay Bute, he ended up on the hulks in Portsmouth a few years later due to sail to VDL - fortunately various petitions for mercy signed by many gentry, worthies and clergy of West Fife now succeeded and he was pardoned.  In 1855 he sailed free to Melbourne.  Whether he and two other brothers who also emigrated to Australia - including my children's ancestor Robert - ever met up in Victoria I do not know.

Cheers,

JAP