Author Topic: Who will help poor old Hack?  (Read 3480 times)

Offline Hackstaple

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,873
  • Family researcher
    • View Profile
Who will help poor old Hack?
« on: Thursday 20 October 05 17:05 BST (UK) »
Fellow Rootschatters - usually I am the helper but I have a thorny one that somebody may just have the key to. This is the second wife of my wife's paternal grandfather and I am helping her half-cousin research his side of the family. What we have:

The Archives in Cape Town have the following information:
Death of Alice Riley - maiden name Alice Frances Butler - died 20 Mar 1943 - age 73 years & 7 months - born October 1869, England. Husband's name Charles Riley [died 1942]. You will already have spotted a error in calculation in her exact age at date of death!
A search on Ancestry and then on 1837online revealed only one Alice Frances Butler Dec. 1865 Bethnal Green 1c p. 325 - there are others born near the date but birth records on 1837online always show a second Christian name if given. The 1865 does not worry me as she seems to have married at asomething about age 30 and a maiden lady of those days might easily knock off a few years to help with finding a husband and then stick with that story.
OK so far? - there is a family legend that she was the daughter of a Doctor of "Cheltenham" - these people live in South Africa so any vaguely similar name might do.
I find no Alice that fits in 1871 or 1881 and no Dr. Butler with a daughter Alice in 1881.
She married Charles Riley about 1894 or 1895 - nobody knows if this was in England or South Africa.
She had a son who was sent to a private boarding school in England - Tollington in the Muswell Hill area. So, I have tried to find her round there in '81 and '91 on the basis that she would hardly have picked a school with which she had no familiarity. There were some pretty good boarding schools in South Africa, even back then so it was not a normal thing to do. I formed the idea that her parents may have lived in that area - perhaps he was not a boarder but a day scholar living at their home.
I doubt whether anybody will want to spend a week on this as I have but perhaps someone may have this Dr. Butler or one of his children in their own blood line. ???
Lastly - her third son - not the one who went to Tollington, was christened Charles Henry de Beauvoir Riley. The de Beauvoir bit intrigues me. The others were Ernest, Cecil Myer, Violet Isobel so no fancypants middle names there. Does that offer any clue? There was a de Beauvoir St. in East London, I think Hackney.There was a de Beauvoir in the 1891 census but none before or after that I have found. 8)
Southern or Southan [Hereford , Monmouthshire & Glos], Jenkins, Meredith and Morgan [Monmouthshire and Glos.], Murrill, Damary, Damry, Ray, Lawrence [all Middx. & London], Nethway from Kenn or Yatton. Also Riley and Lyons in South Africa and Riley from St. Helena.
Any census information included in this post is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline liverpool annie

  • Deceased † Rest In Peace
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • ********
  • Posts: 13,434
  • Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Who will help poor old Hack?
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 20 October 05 17:12 BST (UK) »
Poor Old Hack!

Post this on the South Africa board too! Rutti Tutti is very good at prising out information!! and we can work on it at this end!

Annie ;)

Edit - Hack - could the Butler mentioned here be a relative?

http://www.tollington.com/id130.htm
Cooper : Muels : Howarth : Every : Price : King

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407030702/http://www.freewebs.com/liverpoolannie

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407191115/http://manchestersoldiers.webs.com

http://web.archive.org/web/20130807102055/http://www.powv.webs.com/
Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind ! Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I

Offline millerina

  • I am sorry but my email address is no longer working
  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 508
    • View Profile
Re: Who will help poor old Hack?
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 20 October 05 17:22 BST (UK) »
Hack,

There is a marriage on freebmd for Mar 1867 between a John Edmond De Beauvoir and either a Caroline Ann Beckley or a Latitia(?) Mann (not sure which), in the Islington district. (Vol 1b page 301). Interestingly enough, this district covers Tollington...wonder if they are linked to you??  ???

millerina
All Census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline MaryA

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 9,309
  • St Chads, Kirkby
    • View Profile
Re: Who will help poor old Hack?
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 20 October 05 20:21 BST (UK) »
It reminded me of a comment made in one of the monthly challenges about where middle names came from - de Beauvoir could be a godparent - especially if they had some money  ;) if you know what I mean.  Unfortunately many christenings unless they were RC don't give the godparents names.

Mary
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from The National Archives <br />Lunt (Wavertree/West Derby), Forshaw (West Derby), Richardson (Knowsley), Kent (Cheshire), <br />Cain (Hertfordshire, London), Larkins (Bedfordshire, London), Nunn (London), Lenton, Hillyard (Bedfordshire), <br />Parle, Lambert, Furlong, Wafer (Wexford)<br />Special separate interest in Longford (Blackrock, Dublin)


Offline Hackstaple

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,873
  • Family researcher
    • View Profile
Re: Who will help poor old Hack?
« Reply #4 on: Friday 21 October 05 08:41 BST (UK) »
Poor Old Hack!

Post this on the South Africa board too! Rutti Tutti is very good at prising out information!! and we can work on it at this end!

Annie ;)

Edit - Hack - could the Butler mentioned here be a relative?

http://www.tollington.com/id130.htm

Hi Annie
I had spent some time previously on this Butler but  in the 1891 census I found an E.A. Butler, schoolmaster, but he was down in Kent and so hardly able to act as Vice-Principal at Tollington Park. However, there may still be some link to "my" Alice Butler.
I posted this query also on the S. Africa board but it is not really the South African connection that I need.
Southern or Southan [Hereford , Monmouthshire & Glos], Jenkins, Meredith and Morgan [Monmouthshire and Glos.], Murrill, Damary, Damry, Ray, Lawrence [all Middx. & London], Nethway from Kenn or Yatton. Also Riley and Lyons in South Africa and Riley from St. Helena.
Any census information included in this post is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Hackstaple

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,873
  • Family researcher
    • View Profile
Re: Who will help poor old Hack?
« Reply #5 on: Friday 21 October 05 08:44 BST (UK) »
It reminded me of a comment made in one of the monthly challenges about where middle names came from - de Beauvoir could be a godparent - especially if they had some money  ;) if you know what I mean.  Unfortunately many christenings unless they were RC don't give the godparents names.

Mary
Good point Mary. I had chased a red herring in this direction as I assumed that because her step-son was a Catholic [of sorts] then she would be also. However her eldest grandson told me recently that their whole family were C of E. But the godfather idea is good - perhaps there was a family friend de Beauvoir in South Africa.
Southern or Southan [Hereford , Monmouthshire & Glos], Jenkins, Meredith and Morgan [Monmouthshire and Glos.], Murrill, Damary, Damry, Ray, Lawrence [all Middx. & London], Nethway from Kenn or Yatton. Also Riley and Lyons in South Africa and Riley from St. Helena.
Any census information included in this post is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Hackstaple

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,873
  • Family researcher
    • View Profile
Re: Who will help poor old Hack?
« Reply #6 on: Friday 21 October 05 08:48 BST (UK) »
Hack,

There is a marriage on freebmd for Mar 1867 between a John Edmond De Beauvoir and either a Caroline Ann Beckley or a Latitia(?) Mann (not sure which), in the Islington district. (Vol 1b page 301). Interestingly enough, this district covers Tollington...wonder if they are linked to you??  ???

millerina

Thanks Millerina - I had noticed this before but but I never found anybody that matched in. Of course, Alice's mother could have been a Miss De Beauvoir but then I would expect to find that marriage, but haven't. The name and district link make this a seductive lead though. Thank you.
Southern or Southan [Hereford , Monmouthshire & Glos], Jenkins, Meredith and Morgan [Monmouthshire and Glos.], Murrill, Damary, Damry, Ray, Lawrence [all Middx. & London], Nethway from Kenn or Yatton. Also Riley and Lyons in South Africa and Riley from St. Helena.
Any census information included in this post is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline gennig

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,492
    • View Profile
Re: Who will help poor old Hack?
« Reply #7 on: Friday 21 October 05 13:00 BST (UK) »
Hi Hack

Just in case E A Butler turns out to be connected.  Here he is in 1891.

RG12/126 Folio: 239 page: 5
39 Ashley Road, St Mary Islington
Edward Albert BUTLER Head 46 Alton Hampshire Teach (mathematics & science) & Author (Entomology)
Lucy BUTLER wife 39 India
Marguerita Lucy BUTLER dau 12 Hastings Sussex Scholar
Constance Emily BUTLER dau 10 Hastings Sussex Scholar
Frank BUTLER son 9 Hastings Sussex Scholar
Edith Mary BUTLER dau 7 Holloway London Scholar
Grace BUTLER dau 6 Holloway London Scholar
Joseph Elijah BUTLER father Widower 72 Alton Hampshire Retired Bookseller
Arthur Vincent BROOK boarder 15 Holloway London Scholar
Frederick James SCHOFIELD boarder 13 Huddersfield Yorkshire Scholar
Mary SELLENS servant 31 Sedlescomb Sussex Nurse domestic
Rebecca FULLER servant 20 Poplar London General domestic servant
Martha H J GOLD servant 14 Kentishtown London General domestic servant

Lady Letitia De Beauvoir nee Mann was born (between 1817 and 1821 depending on which census) in Denver, Norfolk.  She died in Paddington March Qtr 1895.  Her husband died before 1871 as she stated as a widow and visiting Eliza Mosse in Westminister.  In 1881 she is boarding with Sarah J French in St Luke London.  Sarah's maiden name was Mann and was stated as a servant to Letitia's mother in the 1861 census.  In 1891 she was boarding with Rosa C Hughes in Paddington.

Cheers
Genni
*******************************************
All census look up transcriptions are Crown copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

*******************************************
Surnames:
Armstrong, Gray, Greco, Lambden, Le Busque, Beaton, Carron, Pitt, Gould
Areas:
Victoria, Tasmania, Hampshire, Berkshire, Yorkshire, Fermanagh, Glamorgan

Offline Hackstaple

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,873
  • Family researcher
    • View Profile
Re: Who will help poor old Hack?
« Reply #8 on: Friday 21 October 05 15:47 BST (UK) »
Thank you very much Genni. I really could not find him. This is obviously the Butler of Tollington Park School - perhaps he is a brother of Alice? [the right sort of age]. Now I shall have to look to see if I can find Joseph Elijah with a daughter called Alice. :)

Later - very easy to track J.E. Butler through the censuses to 1861 - his age and place of birth being absolutely consistent [an ideal sort of ancestor for someone]. However, not a trace of Alice Frances in any of them so one must conclude that the shared surname is a coincidence or that the relationship  is more distant. :'(
Southern or Southan [Hereford , Monmouthshire & Glos], Jenkins, Meredith and Morgan [Monmouthshire and Glos.], Murrill, Damary, Damry, Ray, Lawrence [all Middx. & London], Nethway from Kenn or Yatton. Also Riley and Lyons in South Africa and Riley from St. Helena.
Any census information included in this post is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk