Royal Navy bandmaster

[silicondale]

Charles Alphonso Vine (born Horsebridge, Hailsham, Sussex, 1855), a cousin of my g-grandad, was a bandmaster in the Royal Navy in the late 19th century according to his newspaper obituary in 1909 (Bedfordshire Mercury 10 Sept 1909 - image attached). In that year he was bandmaster of the Bedford town 'silver prize' band. He had previously taught music in at least 3 schools, including some years at Harrow. I have contacted the schools (Harrow, Cranleigh, and King Edward's, Witley) for any information they may have - but I don't know where to start on finding out about his service with the Royal Navy. There is an 1871 census entry for a Charles Vine born Brighton 1856 (not Hailsham 1855), private soldier in Aldershot but this seems wrong - army, not navy, and an 1881 census entry for Charles Vine, 'attendant' at Earlswood Asylum, Reigate Foreign, born Brighton 1857, seems even wronger. The 1891 census at last makes sense - he is music master at Cranleigh, Surrey, which is one of the schools identified in his obituary.

I don't really know where to start, to find details of his Royal Navy musical service. Any suggestions welcome! I have an FindMyPast subscription but that seems of little use for this.
 

[fiddlerslass]

National Archives

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=Charles+Alphonso+vine&_sd=&_ed=&_hb=

[silicondale]

Many thanks! Why didn't I think of that? I've been disappointed so many times by fruitless searches on the National Archives, that I tend to treat it as a last resort. You're a star!

[fiddlerslass]

I believe this is Charles in 1861,as according to his birth reg on the GRO site his mmn was Willis

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M75L-PZ6?lang=en

[silicondale]

Thanks - yes, that is indeed him in 1861. There are complications with the Willis family (his mother seems to have gone walkabout several times), but the presence of his grandmother in 1861 confirms this entry is correct! He had three younger brothers who are harder to track down, but that's another story. One had persistent trouble with the law (so I even found an 1876 police mugshot of him), and the family self-destructed after the death of their father in 1877, so the youngest ended up in the Barnardo's home in Stepney. Probably the best place for him, as it saved him from the life of petty crime, he learned a trade and had a steady life afterwards.

[fiddlerslass]

I wouldn't dismiss the army connection too quickly. The army is the most likely place that a boy from a poor family would receive musical training.
There is no obvious Brighton birth registration of a Charles Vine around 1855 and the 1871 census return would not be completed by Charles.
It may be worth asking if he attended Kneller Hall.

https://museumofarmymusic.com/research/

[ShaunJ]

There is an 1871 census entry for a Charles Vine born Brighton 1856 (not Hailsham 1855)

Aged 15 in the 1871 census so he was born some time between April 3rd 1855 and April 2nd 1856.

[silicondale]

Thanks, both. The 1871 census entry shows a Charles Vine in the army at Aldershot. The age is almost correct. His birth was registered in Q1 1855, so born before April, but that's closer than many census entries! The GRO indexes don't have any Charles Vine born in Brighton between 1853 and 1857. Q1 1855 Hailsham is the closest, otherwise Eastbourne in Q2 1857. A great pity the army didn't record his middle name. So I can't dismiss the army connection, and it's a good point that it may well be where he got his musical training. He was appointed as a Royal Navy chief bandmaster only in 1895, AFTER serving as bandmaster in at least one of the schools, so the Royal Navy wasn't a career, just a job for 4 years (1895-1898). He is listed as an occupier/ratepayer at an address on Portsea Island in 1896 (helpfully with his middle name), which I think would corroborate this. Not living in barracks or aboard a ship.

[Andy J2022]

The 1871 census entry shows a Charles Vine in the army at Aldershot. The age is almost correct. His birth was registered in Q1 1855, so born before April, but that's closer than many census entries!

The Charles Vine in the Army in 1871 is at Farnham, not Aldershot, and is serving with the 2nd battalion 4th Regiment of Foot, later to become The King's Own Royal Regiment. The battalion remained in England until 1874 when they went to Ireland. They returned to England in 1877 and were posted to Natal in 1878, remaining in South Africa until 1880 after which they went to India. A soldier under the age of 18 was not supposed to be sent overseas (that didn't include Ireland).

Queens Regulations from the period say this about the recruitment and retention of boy soldiers:
"36. Boys of good character between the ages of 14 and 16 may be enlisted for the purpose of being trained as trumpeters, drummers, buglers, and musicians, at the rate of one boy for every 100 rank and file of establishment."
"Before a boy is enlisted the consent of his parents or guardians is to be obtained."
"38. Whenever boys, partly trained as musicians, are required by regiments, the commanding officer should apply to the superintendent of any industrial or other recognised school stating the instrument on which he wishes the boy to play."
"39. All boys, except those from the Royal Military Asylum at Chelsea and the Royal Hibernian Military School at Dublin, are to be considered as on probation for six months".