Author Topic: John Early c1800 lookup request  (Read 172 times)

Offline Neale1961

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Re: John Early c1800 lookup request
« Reply #18 on: Friday 20 February 26 23:12 GMT (UK) »
Hi Earley-bird

Can I suggest you revisit the census records for your John Early to see recorded places and approximate years of birth.
ColC has kindly made this easy in his reply #8.
Remember that ages in census records are rarely exact, and the discrepancies in ages between John and Sarah, over the census years, is vast.

Then review this 1841 census Southwark HURLEY family
Father John is a labourer. Son John age 13
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQV1-Z9M?lang=en
         Note - Bridget Collins, 24 born Ireland, in the same house

The 1841 census was taken on 6 June, while all other later census were taken in early April.
For John to be 13 at the time of the 1841 census he would have been born after 5 June 1828. Can we take the ages that exactly?

John’s marriage cert. does not state his age – only that he was a minor at 12 July 1846. He would have been under age if born 1826-1828. As I understand it, a parent or guardian’s permission would have been required – so it is likely that some such person was present, but they may not have signed the register.
At marriage Sarah Ann Bruce was recorded as of full age, but I doubt this is correct. We know from her baptism record that her birth was supposedly 7 Sept 1828. So therefore she was also under age, and telling a lie.

I don’t understand how you know that John Early Senior, nor any of John junior’s siblings were not at his wedding. We only know about the 4 signatures on the register, and the church minister. 12 July 1846 was a Sunday (not a work day), so it is quite possible that family members were present. There is no way of knowing exactly who attended.

In the 1841 census I posted, John Hurley senior is a labourer in the Southwark wharves area.. By 1846 he might have been in a foreman’s position – thus the title “Wharfinger” given by his son. His son may have been over-inflating /promoting his father’s occupation as a way to improve his own social standing. I have seen this sort of manipulation of the truth on marriage records many times before.
Milligan - Jardine – Glencross – Dinwoodie - Brown: (Dumfriesshire & Kirkcudbrightshire)
Clark – Faulds – Cuthbertson – Bryson – Wilson: (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire)
Neale – Cater – Kinder - Harrison: (Warwickshire & Queensland)
Roberts - Spry: (Cornwall, Middlesex & Queensland)
Munster: (Schleswig-Holstein & Queensland) and Plate: (Braunschweig, Neubruck & Queensland & New York)

Offline Neale1961

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Re: John Early c1800 lookup request
« Reply #19 on: Saturday 21 February 26 00:14 GMT (UK) »
This is the BRUCE family in 1841 census. The father James is a carpenter.
In the column “Where born – Scotland, Ireland or Foreign parts” in has Y.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQVC-B5F?lang=en


The daughters were all baptised at St Margaret’s Church, Westminster.
Sarah baptised 17 Jun. 1829 (born 7 Sep. 1828)
Father James Bruce a carpenter; Address – Holland Street.
Milligan - Jardine – Glencross – Dinwoodie - Brown: (Dumfriesshire & Kirkcudbrightshire)
Clark – Faulds – Cuthbertson – Bryson – Wilson: (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire)
Neale – Cater – Kinder - Harrison: (Warwickshire & Queensland)
Roberts - Spry: (Cornwall, Middlesex & Queensland)
Munster: (Schleswig-Holstein & Queensland) and Plate: (Braunschweig, Neubruck & Queensland & New York)

Offline earley-bird

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Re: John Early c1800 lookup request
« Reply #20 on: Saturday 21 February 26 10:35 GMT (UK) »
Hi Earley-bird

Can I suggest you revisit the census records for your John Early to see recorded places and approximate years of birth.
 
That is a very good idea although I already have a comprehensive record of all the census where John and Sarah are concerned including dwellings and images of the various buildings that they lived in.  I need to refresh my memory as it has been several years since I last looked at all this and I'm finding it difficult to collate all this in my mind.

ColC has kindly made this easy in his reply #8.
Remember that ages in census records are rarely exact, and the discrepancies in ages between John and Sarah, over the census years, is vast.

Yes thats a very good point I need to allow for more latitude in the details on the census returns . I have found one of my Earley's on a census return with their names recorded as  the Street name Tooley St where they lived !...

Then review this 1841 census Southwark HURLEY family
Father John is a labourer. Son John age 13
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQV1-Z9M?lang=en
         Note - Bridget Collins, 24 born Ireland, in the same house

Again yes this is by far the best lead that I have at present and I'm quite excited to look further into this today.

The 1841 census was taken on 6 June, while all other later census were taken in early April.
For John to be 13 at the time of the 1841 census he would have been born after 5 June 1828. Can we take the ages that exactly?

John’s marriage cert. does not state his age – only that he was a minor at 12 July 1846. He would have been under age if born 1826-1828. As I understand it, a parent or guardian’s permission would have been required – so it is likely that some such person was present, but they may not have signed the register.
At marriage Sarah Ann Bruce was recorded as of full age, but I doubt this is correct. We know from her baptism record that her birth was supposedly 7 Sept 1828. So therefore she was also under age, and telling a lie.

Again yes you are quite right about age discrepancies in old records. I need to give more lattitude in considering recorded results as many folk would have struggled to keep records of any sort and I'm pretty sure that Sarah signed with a cross.

I don’t understand how you know that John Early Senior, nor any of John junior’s siblings were not at his wedding. We only know about the 4 signatures on the register, and the church minister. 12 July 1846 was a Sunday (not a work day), so it is quite possible that family members were present. There is no way of knowing exactly who attended.

I thought that it was  logical that if a Father or Mother were present at a wedding they would be the Witness not someone from another family living in the same house but you are of course correct I have no way of knowing for sure, it was just a reasonable assumption on my part.

In the 1841 census I posted, John Hurley senior is a labourer in the Southwark wharves area.. By 1846 he might have been in a foreman’s position – thus the title “Wharfinger” given by his son. His son may have been over-inflating /promoting his father’s occupation as a way to improve his own social standing. I have seen this sort of manipulation of the truth on marriage records many times before.

Yes this is very true...we all can be guilty of overstating our postition, title, rank etc. 'Wharfinger' sounds a lot more prestigeous than 'Labourer ' doesn't it.

Thanks for all your help it really is appreciated. I have much to research today and finally some hope of moving forward after all these years of searching the answer was right there in front of me but I just didn't see it. !
Whitchurch, Westminster / Buckinghamshire
Cooper,     Westminster
Pollard     Surrey
Earley,  Holborn London
Bruce,  London
Kangeisser  London
Lawlor, Widnes Lancashire
Hagan   Widnes Lancashire

All Census Lookups are are Crown Copyright, National Archives for academic and non-commercial research purposes only, I support copyright, a Wife, 2x children  a dobie, 2 x cats, a Tawny owl. and several mice if the drop

Offline earley-bird

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Re: John Early c1800 lookup request
« Reply #21 on: Saturday 21 February 26 12:05 GMT (UK) »
I have just found a  note on FindMyPast about the 1841 Census records . I have never seen this before  ::)
Had I been aware previously I would have been far more circumspect about given ages on the 1841 census and may have been able to progress some of my research into other Family lines more easily.

Note: In the 1841 Census a policy of rounding down ages was in place. As such, people aged:

15-19 were recorded as 15
20-24 were recorded as 20
25-29 were recorded as 25
30-34 were recorded as 30
35-39 were recorded as 35...and so on
Whitchurch, Westminster / Buckinghamshire
Cooper,     Westminster
Pollard     Surrey
Earley,  Holborn London
Bruce,  London
Kangeisser  London
Lawlor, Widnes Lancashire
Hagan   Widnes Lancashire

All Census Lookups are are Crown Copyright, National Archives for academic and non-commercial research purposes only, I support copyright, a Wife, 2x children  a dobie, 2 x cats, a Tawny owl. and several mice if the drop


Offline Neale1961

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Re: John Early c1800 lookup request
« Reply #22 on: Saturday 21 February 26 12:33 GMT (UK) »
Yes, the rounding down of ages in the 1841 is just one of the problems, but worth keeping in mind.
The 1841 census was the first national census and the public and enumerators had much to learn.
Unfortunately, some enumerators did not apply the rounding down rule to ages, while others got it confused and rounded up instead. With experience, it is often possible to tell what is going on with ages, when you look at other households on the same page.

In the case of the Hurley family of Brooks Court, Southwark, you can see that the rounding down of ages was probably not applied to the adults in the house.

Other things I keep in mind about that 1841 census -
- relationships within the household were not included.
- it was taken on a Sunday in summertime, when a lot of people were out and about, and away from their usual home.
Milligan - Jardine – Glencross – Dinwoodie - Brown: (Dumfriesshire & Kirkcudbrightshire)
Clark – Faulds – Cuthbertson – Bryson – Wilson: (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire)
Neale – Cater – Kinder - Harrison: (Warwickshire & Queensland)
Roberts - Spry: (Cornwall, Middlesex & Queensland)
Munster: (Schleswig-Holstein & Queensland) and Plate: (Braunschweig, Neubruck & Queensland & New York)

Offline earley-bird

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Re: John Early c1800 lookup request
« Reply #23 on: Monday 23 February 26 17:09 GMT (UK) »
Hi Earley-bird


In the 1841 census I posted, John Hurley senior is a labourer in the Southwark wharves area.. By 1846 he might have been in a foreman’s position – thus the title “Wharfinger” given by his son. His son may have been over-inflating /promoting his father’s occupation as a way to improve his own social standing. I have seen this sort of manipulation of the truth on marriage records many times before.
Hi Neale
after much research and deliberation over the w/e  I have temporarily eliminated the Hurly's and Hurley's from my search at the moment.I may go back to them if my other search line of Early and Earley's don't take me anywhere.

The main reason that I have come to this decision is because when John Hurley later gets married it is not to a Sarah Ann..  I have researched and verified the entire lineage from John & Sarah Ann Earley down to me so although their are some interesting date and name correlations, this Hurley family could not be my Ancestors. Thank you for all your searches and help, its much appreciated .John
Whitchurch, Westminster / Buckinghamshire
Cooper,     Westminster
Pollard     Surrey
Earley,  Holborn London
Bruce,  London
Kangeisser  London
Lawlor, Widnes Lancashire
Hagan   Widnes Lancashire

All Census Lookups are are Crown Copyright, National Archives for academic and non-commercial research purposes only, I support copyright, a Wife, 2x children  a dobie, 2 x cats, a Tawny owl. and several mice if the drop