Author Topic: Royal munster fusilier 5580  (Read 194 times)

Offline patobrien

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Royal munster fusilier 5580
« on: Wednesday 04 February 26 16:09 GMT (UK) »
My grandfather (John Francis O'Brien) was born in Limerick on 22 April 1881 and joined the RMF (service number 5580) in time to serve in the second Boer war ( I have his queen's medal). Unfortunately I cannot find any information regarding his joining up details. Service Number 5576 joined in January 1898 and so I would expect he joined very soon after this. He went on to serve in the first World War and was captured as a pow following the action at Etreux, before serving his time at Giessen Germany as a pow. I would be most grateful if anyone could help locate his enlistment details or at least direct me where to look. Many thanks in anticipation. Pat O'Brien

Online Sinann

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Re: Royal munster fusilier 5580
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 04 February 26 22:39 GMT (UK) »
I got my grandfather’s record on Ancestry years ago but they are possibly in their Fold 3 section now.
He also served in the Boer War but with the Royal Dublin Fusiliers, I also had a grand uncle in Giessen camp, they might have know each other.

Offline patobrien

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Re: Royal munster fusilier 5580
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 05 February 26 06:09 GMT (UK) »
Sinann, I'm no expert in using any of the tracing tools, but have had no success so far. So many were taken as PoWs I'm sure many really strong friendships were made. Thank you. Pat

Offline Andy J2022

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Re: Royal munster fusilier 5580
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 05 February 26 10:12 GMT (UK) »
Pat,
His service record does not appear to have survived. Does his South Africa medal have his number on it? I think you are right to assume that he enlisted in early 1898, which means that  either he lied about his age (he would only have been 16 in January 1898) or he joined as a boy soldier and was not supposed to deploy overseas until he was 18 ie after April 1899. Logically he would have joined the 1st battalion as they were in Fermoy at the time (the 2nd Battalion was in India).  The 1st Battalion left Southampton for Cape town in August 1899 (when he would have been old enough to go with them) and arrived in Cape Town on 16 September. After distinguished service in the Second Boer War, the 1st Battalion left from Capetown in September 1902 and sailed to Bombay where they were stationed until December 1914. We know that he landed in France with the 2nd battalion on 14 Aug 1914, so at some point he must have transferred between the two regular battalions. Alternatively he joined the Reserve following the end of the Boer war and was recalled to the colours in the Summer of 1914, which is when he joined the 2nd Battalion. I don't think was initially with the 2nd Battalion after enlistment because of the age issue.

The 2nd battalion transferred from India to South Africa in November 1901 and were employed on blockhouse garrison duties, the fighting in the Orange River area having subsided somewhat.
There are only 3 J O'Briens shown in the  R Mun F Boer War medal rolls:

   O'Brien J      2nd Battalion
   O'Brien J   2536 Private Severely wounded. Bethlehem, 6 July 1900 1st Battalion.
Source: South African Field Force Casualty Roll
   O'Brien J   6326 Private Severely wounded. Kroonstad, 24 September 1901 1st Battalion. Accident
Source: South African Field Force Casualty Roll

so possibly the first one (with no number or rank shown) is your grandfather, which indicates that at the point when the medal rolls were compiled he was with the 2nd Battalion.

Another possibility is that he didn't join the Regular Army in 1898. Instead he enrolled in the Militia and so went to South Africa after the 3rd (Militia) Battalion were embodied at Kinsale on 5 December 1899, and then arriving in Cape Town on 19 March 1900. The 3rd (Militia) Battalion returned to Cork and were disembodied on 31 March 1902. If this was the case, then he may have initially had a different number (the militia usually used a separate set of numbers to the Regular battalions) hence my earlier question about his SA medal. But this version of events doesn't account for him being 5580 at the start of the First World War. So on balance I'm inclined to discard the Militia theory.

Further information on the R Mun F in South Africa: https://www.angloboerwar.com/unit-information/imperial-units/574-royal-munster-fusiliers

As for his First World War experience, you probably know all there is to know about that. He deployed with the 2nd battalion and on 27 August 1914, his first day in action, he was captured by the Germans and spent the rest of the war as a POW. He was discharged on 26 Sep 1919.

Usually I suggest contacting a Regiment's museum or Association to see if they have more documentation such as enlistment books, but it appears that the Royal Munsters don't have a dedicated museum, and their Association website lacks any research contact details. The next best thing might be to try the Cork City Museum: https://www.corkcity.ie/en/cork-public-museum/exhibitions/past-present-exhibitions/the-forgotten-regiment-the-royal-munster-fusiliers/
 


Offline cath151

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Re: Royal munster fusilier 5580
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 05 February 26 10:56 GMT (UK) »
Where was he born in Limerick? There are  a few records for a John O'Brien born Limerick born c 1881.
Cathy
Do Castleconnell, St Johns, St Michaels ring a bell?
Cathy
Sinnock/Sinnicks...Brighton,Greenwich.
Clements,Coles,Mc Donagh,Rock

Census InformationCrown Copyright from www.national archives.gov.uk

Offline patobrien

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Re: Royal munster fusilier 5580
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 05 February 26 11:03 GMT (UK) »
Andy,
Ty for this, you clearly have done your homework. I am away for a while so will check later about what is engraved, but I have a copy of his nomination for the award which sites Newcastle, Natal as the location and is signed by his CO. This lists him as 5580, so I can only imagine this was also his number on enlistment. Your details about Etreux are known to me and while I have no details of his actions on the day, he undoubtedly was fortunate to survive. What I have no knowledge of though is his service life between 1902 and 1914. I think he was posted to Plymouth (my home town) at some stage but have been unable to establish links with any other RMF Btllns or maybe its because he was abroad. Ty once again.
Pat

Offline patobrien

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Re: Royal munster fusilier 5580
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 05 February 26 11:13 GMT (UK) »
Cathy,
Ty for your reply. Haughtons Lane,  Parish of St. Michael,   Limerick is where he was born. His birth is registered as John Michael, while his baptismal certificate from 26th April  1881 says he is John Francis. (maybe a change of heart or an admin error - I doubt I will ever know). I suppose it is possible that two  children were born with the same surname as it's common enough, but I understand that Haughtons Lane was quite small and so probably unlikely. TY once again.
Pat

Offline patobrien

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Re: Royal munster fusilier 5580
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 05 February 26 14:05 GMT (UK) »
Andy, I have checked and medal has RMF 5580, OBrien J engraved on it so I guess he must have joined up with this.
Pat

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: Royal munster fusilier 5580
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 05 February 26 20:26 GMT (UK) »
A large percentage of  Great War and previous Boer War British soldiers' records were lost during WWII - burnt. If you can't find his record then it is probable that his was one of those burnt. In which case there is nothing to be done about that. However, medal and pension records (were applicable) do exist.
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