Birth - Significance of who registers a birth?

[Rowan Tree]

I had a similar one a few years ago. The baby was registered 41 days after the date of birth which is a bit suspicious anyway. Informant was (like in this case) an unrelated woman living some distance away who claimed she was present at birth. The mother was a single woman but on the birth certificate appears to be the wife of a man who was probably the father. I also suspected that she didn't feel she could lie to the registrar and got a friend to do it. Or she could have lied to the friend who gave the registrar the information in good faith.

Hi LizzieL,

Thanks for this. I was hoping I'd read another person's experience of a birth registered by someone outside the family. As I've only experienced this once, I just haven't got anything to compare with.

I do have some death certificates where the certificate was produced after an inquest and signed by the coroner, but that's quite a different set of circumstances. And I think everyone has multiple, multiple marriage certificates with many a creative fib on them 

All these interesting comments are really helping me.

Rowan Tree 

[Rowan Tree]

"Making a false declaration on a 1916 birth registration in the UK would fall under the Perjury Act 1911, specifically Section 4, which addressed false statements related to births or deaths. This was a criminal offence classified as a misdemeanour.

Penalties on Indictment
Conviction on indictment could result in penal servitude for up to seven years, imprisonment for up to two years, or a fine. These were the maximum penalties outlined in the Act for wilfully making false declarations or certificates concerning birth registrations. 

Penalties on Summary Conviction
On summary conviction, the penalty was limited to a fine not exceeding £100. This lighter option applied to less severe cases handled in magistrates' courts."

£100 could be getting on for 2 years' salary!

.
Hi Zaph,

Thanks for this. I'd not even considered what the legal ramifications could be for lying on a birth certificate.

£100!!! There would have been absolutely no way that Edith could even begin to raise such a sum.

Edith eventually, and perhaps against the odds, remarried in July 1924. She had four sons from her first marriage and after her husband's death had two daughters who had been born with no father on the scene. She was literally penniless. My grandad said things were very hard. He spoke of being barefoot and of pinching food from nearby Earlestown Market to survive.

Rowan Tree 

[hanes teulu]

In the absence of a date of attestation I recall efforts in previous threads made to calculate a possible date or time period from the soldier number. But it is not an exact science.

For example, No 178019 appears against Sapper Robert W Gathergood attesting for the Royal Engineers, 6 June 1916, Regt or Corps 2nd R.B.R.E, place Norwich. I understand Nos. weren't allocated consecutively because of scattered recruitment depots? Nos. were possibly allocated in blocks so it is not possible to say with confidence that 178150 was issued after 178019.

Can someone confirm?

I've found a couple of soldiers with similar numbers who enlisted in Feb 1916

eg John Barrow Wyrill 178319 enlisted at Manchester on 22 Feb 1916

I was responding to LizzieL's reply. Using Regt'l No. to determine/estimate date of attesting/joining in the absence of a recorded date eg. your Arthur's situation. Only a medal record exists.

JBW is the John Barrow Wyrill above - LizzieL's find. His Regt'l No., 178319, is greater than Robert W Gathergood's Regt'l No., 178019 (my find), yet he appears to have attested/joined the Royal Engineers before Robert. However, checking JBW's record he enlisted 6 Jun 1916 not 22.2.16 which, oddly, is the same date as Robert W.

Regt'l numbers were not necessarily issued consecutively. They may also have been reissued? Therefore, it isn't safe to say the higher the no. in a regiment the later the date of enlisting. I've been casting around for army records with date of attestation and Regt'l Nos. close to your Arthur's and for the same regiment. Sadly, they do not exist.
As I said, an exact science it ain't but I've seen it used successfully in other cases.
Apologies for the confusion and an interesting post.
regards.j   

[hanes teulu]

One thing's been puzzling me - why couldn't I find a record on the Nat Archives or Anc* medal roll under 178150.
Seems his No. on these records is 148150. FindMyPast has him under both.

   

[Rowan Tree]

Florence E Wells 'present at the birth' may have been a midwife?
Have you found her in the 1911 and 1921 Censuses?

Hi gildie61,

Thanks for your comment and suggestion.

I've been looking into Florence Elizabeth WELLS' life to see if any clues jump out to me. If nothing else, I'm quite enjoying looking at her immediate family tree.

Florence was born Florence Elizabeth CAVE in Ipswich, Suffolk. DOB 04/11/1883.
I've not come across an Ipswich connection in either the MOORE or MADDOCKS families.

It looks like Florence is on the 1911 census as Florence Pierson, boarder, age 28, married 3years, 2 children, born Ipswich, Suffolk.
Also in the household are two Pierson children (but no Mr. Pierson), Winifred Edith and Arthur Edward.

Florence Elizabeth CAVE marries William David PEARSON in Liverpool, Lancs in 1911 (quarter 4).

17/05/1914 - A widowed Florence Elizabeth PEARSON marries Wilfred WELLS at St. Dunstan, Edge Hill. She lists her father as deceased but I think I've found him on the 1921 census.

1921 Census - Florence Elizabeth WELLS, wife, age 37 years and 8 months, married, born Ipswich, Suffolk, occupation home duties.
There are numbers in the employment box for Florence but the numbers could be relating to the box above (Florence's husband) or it could be the enumerator working something out. I don't know what the numbers mean because it's got 4 digits (followed by a dash and two more numbers), not 3.
The number is 3510 - 04.

Also on the 21 census is Florence's husband and two children:
Wilfred WELLS
Arthur Edward PEARSON
Wilfred Alexander WELLS

The family are living at 17 Brookfield Street, Newton-le-Willows.

1939 Register - The family are still living at 17 Brookfield Street, Newton-le-Willows.
There are 5 people in the household with the 4th person redacted.
Wilfred WELLS 19/03/1883
Florence Elizabeth WELLS
Nora WELLS born 27/08/1917
Redaction
Wilfred Alexander WELLS 28/02/1920

Wilfred WELLS died 12/06/1958 and is buried (or ashes interred) at Newton-le-Willows Cemetery.
The National Probate Calendar shows his address of 19 Wargrave Road, Newton-le-Willows.
BTW Wilfred was born in Seaton, Cumberland.
The MADDOCKS have a slight connection to Cumberland.
At some point soon after Edith Annie was born, Edith Annie's parents went to live in Workington, Cumberland. The family, with new children who were born, lived in Workington at least between 1887 and 1890. By the 1891 census the MADDOCKS' are living in Tranmere, Cheshire. Mr. and Mrs. MADDOCKS remain in Tranmere for the whole of their lives. I believe Edith Annie became estranged from her parents and by at least 1906 she's living in Ardwick, Manchester.

Florence died 02/06/1974 and is buried (or ashes interred) at Newton-le-Willows Cemetery.

Rowan Tree 

[Rowan Tree]

I was responding to LizzieL's reply. Using Regt'l No. to determine/estimate date of attesting/joining in the absence of a recorded date eg. your Arthur's situation. Only a medal record exists.

JBW is the John Barrow Wyrill above - LizzieL's find. His Regt'l No., 178319, is greater than Robert W Gathergood's Regt'l No., 178019 (my find), yet he appears to have attested/joined the Royal Engineers before Robert. However, checking JBW's record he enlisted 6 Jun 1916 not 22.2.16 which, oddly, is the same date as Robert W.

Regt'l numbers were not necessarily issued consecutively. They may also have been reissued? Therefore, it isn't safe to say the higher the no. in a regiment the later the date of enlisting. I've been casting around for army records with date of attestation and Regt'l Nos. close to your Arthur's and for the same regiment. Sadly, they do not exist.
As I said, an exact science it ain't but I've seen it used successfully in other cases.
Apologies for the confusion and an interesting post.
regards.j

No apologies needed. I'm with you now.

Thanks for explaining. And many thanks for all your effort and help. It's much appreciated.

Rowan Tree

[hanes teulu]

There's a fold 3 record on Anc* which I can't access - no 178150.

Looking at his medal card the 2nd character looks suspiciously like a 7 that is easily read as a 4? 

[Rowan Tree]

One thing's been puzzling me - why couldn't I find a record on the Nat Archives or Anc* medal roll under 178150.
Seems his No. on these records is 148150. FindMyPast has him under both.

I don't understand this either 

I found Arthur's medal index card on Ancestry under 148150

Army Registers of Soldiers' Effects on Ancestry under 178150

Soldiers Died in the Great War on Ancestry under 178150
It says enlistment place "Earlestown"

World War I Pension Card on Ancestry under 178150

World War I Pension and Ledgers and Index Cards on Ancestry under 178150

World War I Service Medal and Award Rolls on Ancestry under 178150

Arthur is on the CWCG under 178150. If I enter the 148150 number I don't get any results.
His headstone also has the 178150 number.

I'm not sure what the 148150 number is all about, unless it was wrote by mistake on the MIC..?

[Rowan Tree]

There's a fold 3 record on Anc* which I can't access - no 178150.

Looking at his medal card the 2nd character looks suspiciously like a 7 that is easily read as a 4?

I agree re. the 7 and 4.

I think I've got the fold 3 record. I'm just trying to work out what it was. It's been a while since I got the information.

If I remember correctly, Edith Annie's second husband, who was not a good man, wrote to the army or whoever dealt with pensions. I think he was trying to get money that was allotted to my grandad, his brothers, and mum.

EDIT: His name was Thomas Tither