Author Topic: O'Brien Joseph of Emerald/Gembrook Victoria  (Read 109 times)

Offline blacksmithy

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O'Brien Joseph of Emerald/Gembrook Victoria
« on: Saturday 03 January 26 03:42 GMT (UK) »
Thanks in advance for reading this post
I have now traced my family from Sydney to Victoria and would like some understanding of how the towns/areas are defined.  (My previous posts for this family were around the Sydney area).

I am researching Joseph O'Brien married to Jane (nee Baggs).  Family stories had led me to believe they lived in Ferntree Gully but I have since learnt Joseph owned a house and 29 acres at Crown Allotment 59 in the Parish of Gembrook from 1896 until his death in 1901.  This then transferred to his wife Jane and she appeared in the Rates book until 1905.  Jane and her adult children then moved to Christchurch NZ. 

My questions are:
1.  Based on this farm location, I assume this area was not considered part of Ferntree Gully during this time period??

2.  Is 29 acres a sizeable piece of land and is there any way of finding out what he farmed or what most likely he farmed?

3.  Using the old map I have found, is the farm located on the intersection of Beenak E Rd, and Gembrook-Tonimbuk Road?  Can  anyone clarify this for me please.

4. Joseph's death notice in the paper advises he died at his residence on Dec 8 1901 aged C55yrs at Emerald.   However I now know he had a house and land in Gembrook, perhaps he did not live at the farm? 

5. Joseph's death was registered at Scoresby, was this the administrative center for BDM at this time?

6. How did the administrative districts operate (parish/county/shire).
- Am I correct in thinking Gembrook was in the county of the Evelyn and Mornington? 
- Was Emerald town in the Parish of Gembrook and in the county of Evelyn and Mornington? 
- A county relates to the historic administrative unit used for land records. 

Apologies for my muddling questions, so much to try and clarify.  Any help would be appreciated.

I have attached a photo with several of my family which we have been able to identify and know it is prior to 1905 and likely somewhere in the area of Gembrook/Emerald. The event is unknown.
Welsh: Kilbarchan;Canada; New Zealand
MacArthur:North Knapdale
 Weckesser: Germany, Netherands, South Africa, New Zealand, Australia
O'Brien: Australia, New Zealand

Offline judb

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Re: O'Brien Joseph of Emerald/Gembrook Victoria
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 03 January 26 05:33 GMT (UK) »
Oh my - so many administrative titles for various types of administrative records.

1. Parish - this was mainly used for land-ownership documents
Googling gives this onformatin:
Crown Allotment 59 in the Parish of Gembrook refers to a specific parcel of land located within the Gembrook area of Victoria, Australia, identified by its historic Crown Description. This description is widely used across many records to identify land in Victoria.
Key details about Crown Allotment 59 include:
Location: It is situated in the Parish of Gembrook, a regional/farming district in Victoria.
Property Details: One record indicates a property at Lot 59 Grey Road, Gembrook, Vic 3783 as being 10 acres (approx. 4 hectares) with a combination of cleared and bush land, described as a "peaceful, tranquil" location with "rich red soil". The property was listed as sold at some point.
Historical Context: The allotment number is mentioned in historical legislation regarding the route of the narrow-gauge Fern Tree Gully and Gembrook Railway (now the Puffing Billy line), which passed through or terminated near various allotments in the parish.
Land Identification: The "Crown Description" (Parish/Allotment/Section identifier) is the formal method for identifying the land, especially for historical research or official records
Note the reference to the narrow-gauge railway "Puffing Billy"  which still runs but was set up in 1890 to transport mainly produce from the area it served.  It provided a rail-link to Melbourne via the wide gauge trains running from Upper Ferntree Gully.

2. Acreage - not sure about how much you could grow there but the Gembrook area had very good soil and produced crops such as potatoes, orchards and dairy.  Timber getting was also common so a logger/transporter may only need to 'farm' enough for his own family needs.(My great-grandfather built his house at Gembrook North with timber he felled himself.)

3. Can't help you with this one - Googlemap currently shows a couple of properties with houses at that corner.

4. Find-a Grave gives this information: His death cert states he was 55 years old, died of senility (old age), the Informant was a Constable, was Church of England burial, he lived in NSW 41 years, and Victoria for 13 years, he married Jane Baggs in 1869 in Sydney. He was a farmer in Victoria but an upholsterer when he married. He was survived by his wife Jane and their children. On his death the title was passed to his wife and she disappears from the rate books in 1905. (to go to NZ). 
I'm unable to find any grant of probate but this is understandable as title passed to Jane.
Can find nothing re them living at Emerald and they don't seem to have registered to vote.
The informant is apparently a police constable which probably explains why the registration was at Scoresby.  Nowadays the police are called to any unexpected death so possibly that's what happened.
Cemetery address now is:
Address now: 180 Macclesfield Road, Avonsleigh VIC 3782, Australia, which is in Cardinia Shire.

There's also other district names for State election enrolment areas and others for Federal elections (I cannot see Joseph on the Electoral rolls)- all in all, quite a mishmash in trying to untangle them, made worse by changes over the years!

Judith
DYER - Wilts, London, Somerset, MIDLANE - Hants, Wilts, SONE - Hants, WRIGHT - London, Hants, SEAGER - Deptford, DWYER, FERGUSON - Victoria, MASON - Woodford Vic, BALLARD - South Wales, GOULDBY - Lowestoft
"Time present and time past are both perhaps present in time future..." T S Eliot

UK Census information Crown Copyrightt, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline sparrett

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Re: O'Brien Joseph of Emerald/Gembrook Victoria
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 03 January 26 06:09 GMT (UK) »
As Judith mentioned, his death may have been unexpected.
Is this the right event?

1901

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/192210178?searchTerm=%22j%20o%27brien%20emerald%22~6

Sue
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline judb

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Re: O'Brien Joseph of Emerald/Gembrook Victoria
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 03 January 26 06:30 GMT (UK) »
Good find, Sue
The family death notice and the memorial stone give his age as 55.
The circumstances of his death would explain the involvement of police.

Judith
DYER - Wilts, London, Somerset, MIDLANE - Hants, Wilts, SONE - Hants, WRIGHT - London, Hants, SEAGER - Deptford, DWYER, FERGUSON - Victoria, MASON - Woodford Vic, BALLARD - South Wales, GOULDBY - Lowestoft
"Time present and time past are both perhaps present in time future..." T S Eliot

UK Census information Crown Copyrightt, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline blacksmithy

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Re: O'Brien Joseph of Emerald/Gembrook Victoria
« Reply #4 on: Monday 05 January 26 07:15 GMT (UK) »
Many thanks for everyone's very helpful input.

On reviewing the info provided by Sparrett I am wondering if I have missed something.

Anyone's thoughts would be appreciated as I cannot seem to get in to the Victoria BDM to see if there was another Joseph O'Brien who appears to die on the same day in Emerald.
My Joseph's death registration is 15432/1901

My Joseph died Sunday 8th December 1901.  His death was published in the Sydney Morning Herald on Tuesday 10th Dec. 
 

The news article pulled up by Sparrett (see below) from Trove dated Wednesday 11 December 1901, The Age (Melbourne) states:
 "a very old resident of Emerald named Mr. J O'Brien aged 70,  was found dead on Sunday night at his residence.  Late Sunday afternoon Mrs. O"B and daughter left the homestead, and returning shortly afterwards, they found.....

On Saturday 14th Dec. The Age has my Joseph's death notice advising death was sudden  at his residence Emerald and age is 55 yrs (Sydney papers please copy).

It therefore appears that there were 2 men named Joseph O'Brien who died on Sunday 8 December 1901 at Emerald.  What are the chances of that.  I wonder if the 70 yrs recorded in The Melbourne Age paper was incorrect. 

My Joseph had daughters Ellen, Elizabeth, Matilda and Emily, so any of those daughters along with Mrs. O'Brien could have found him laying on the couch deceased.  Hence the Constable reporting the death.

I would appreciated someone else's eyes on my thought there was a typo where 77yrs should have read 55yrs as I am not able to get in to BDM Victoria.

Again thank you for your time and expertise.

Welsh: Kilbarchan;Canada; New Zealand
MacArthur:North Knapdale
 Weckesser: Germany, Netherands, South Africa, New Zealand, Australia
O'Brien: Australia, New Zealand

Offline wivenhoe

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Re: O'Brien Joseph of Emerald/Gembrook Victoria
« Reply #5 on: Monday 05 January 26 08:46 GMT (UK) »

reply #1       "he lived in..........Victoria for 13 years"

reply #4      "a very old resident of Emerald named Mr. J O'Brien aged 70"

Assuming this refers to length of residency, not age.......would you be a very old resident after 13 years?

Offline wivenhoe

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Re: O'Brien Joseph of Emerald/Gembrook Victoria
« Reply #6 on: Monday 05 January 26 09:02 GMT (UK) »



* https://gismaps.gmct.com.au/vertigisstudio/web/?app=37b0a16b73524956abf2a73f89e6ad9b&

Search here for Emerald Cemetery and Joseph O'BRIEN...died 8 Dec 1901...buried 16 Dec 1901.

A delay...in summer....I do not see a PROV inquest file....which might explain a delay.


* "The family death notice and the memorial stone give his age as 55"

You have an image of a ...headstone?.  Can you show an image here please....

Offline judb

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Re: O'Brien Joseph of Emerald/Gembrook Victoria
« Reply #7 on: Monday 05 January 26 12:27 GMT (UK) »
To recap: - sorry long post!

Victoria BMD index gives his age as 55
1901 reg no 15432
OBRIEN, Jos
Place of Death: Scoresby
Age at death: 55

My comment - I think the place of death is somewhat misleading as the newspaper report quoted by Sue in The Age and the family death notice both give the actual place of death as Emerald.  However there was a newly created 'riding' of Scoresby within the Shire of Ferntree Gully.  As I have already mentioned the administrative districts are difficult to disentangle.
Apparently the informant for the death registration was a (Police?) constable which would explain the lack of record of other family members in the death registration.
You can buy an image of the death certificate from Victoria BMD site for cause of death, certifying doctor etc.
The family death notice gives his age as 55 as does the gravestone which is pictured on Find-Grave
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/140695698/joseph-obrien

Find-a-Grave allows contributors to add information to their records and the record for Joseph shows a photo of the headstone as well as the following added biographical information:

Cemetery Emerald Cemetery
Burial Number 306768
Surname O'Brien, Given Name Joseph
Date of Birth about 1846, Date of Death 08/12/1901
Age 55 Y

His death cert states he was 55 years old, died of senility (old age), the Informant was a Constable, was Church of England burial, he lived in NSW 41 years, and Victoria for 13 years, he married Jane Baggs in 1869 in Sydney. He was a farmer in Victoria but an upholsterer when he married. He was survived by his wife Jane and their children.

Joseph was an upholsterer when he married Jane. He lived at Pitt street Sydney at the time. The marriage was Church of England.By 1896 Joseph and the family had moved to Gembrook were he owned a house and 29 acres as part of Crown Allotment 59 in the Parish of Gembrook. On his death the title was passed to his wife and she disappears from the rate books in 1905. (to go to NZ).

There is no citation as to who provided this biographical information.

It is not uncommon for newspaper reports to be incorrect which is probably the reason for the incorrect age in the article found by Sue.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/192210178?
The suddenness of his death and the fact that he was apparently alone would account for an involvement of police but apparently no inquest held.

I cannot see any evidence of there being any other Joseph O'Brien dying at around the same time at Emerald or anywhere else in Victoria.  The only other death registration for anyone of a similar name is for a Patrick Joseph OBrien, aged 41 ,died at Seymour and from the registration number for his death 1901#7450 this man likely died much earlier than December.

Ancestry has a public family tree which includes Joseph and his family and seems well-researched.  You may wish to contact the tree's owner - access to Ancestry is often available through public libraries.

Judith







DYER - Wilts, London, Somerset, MIDLANE - Hants, Wilts, SONE - Hants, WRIGHT - London, Hants, SEAGER - Deptford, DWYER, FERGUSON - Victoria, MASON - Woodford Vic, BALLARD - South Wales, GOULDBY - Lowestoft
"Time present and time past are both perhaps present in time future..." T S Eliot

UK Census information Crown Copyrightt, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline blacksmithy

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Re: O'Brien Joseph of Emerald/Gembrook Victoria
« Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 06:44 »
Once again, many thanks to you all for your talents in searching this man out.

In the early 1990's on our holiday to Australia we ventured to a cemetery in search of his grave but came up with nothing.  Thank you for the plot details!  Seeing the photos of the grave and surrounding adornments makes me wonder more about the life of this family.

Until any further information comes to light, I will assume (ops shouldn't I know) assume my Joseph was the man who died unexpectedly on the sofa.

I am now off to try and trace Joseph and Jane's children in relation to the years they lived around the Melbourne/Victoria area.

Again thank you for your time  :)
Welsh: Kilbarchan;Canada; New Zealand
MacArthur:North Knapdale
 Weckesser: Germany, Netherands, South Africa, New Zealand, Australia
O'Brien: Australia, New Zealand