Winifred Frader (Winnie) B1889 is Missing

[jonwarrn]

SS, are you saying that Edith Winifred may have made up a new name for herself, Frader, and commited bigamy?
Possible of course, but would she then actually say her father was called Elias when she married Johnny Basham?

[Richard19]

Here's my thoughts on my Mysterious Great Aunt Winnie (in order of my most likely)

1) Winnie / Winifred Frader was her real name and I just haven't been able to find her - maybe she wasn't born in Britain
2) She anglicised her name - maybe early in 1914 she didn't think it a good idea to have a foreign sounding name
3) She could have been married and widowed prior to marrying Johnny in 1914
4) She changed her name for some reason and didn't want her background to be known

The marriage certificate may help if her father's name is there and any witnesses may help if there was a connection to Winnie but I'm not banking on it.

Johnny Basham was very well known so it could have been a good enough reason to change her name as he was in court twice just before they maried (In Dec 1912 a woman punched him in the ear after seeing him with another woman (Probably Winnie) and then in Sept 1913 the woman that hit him in Dec 1912 unsuccessully sued him for child support)



I'm hoping her father is recorded on the marriage certificate and that any witnessess do give a clue for me to follow up. If not then it's more likely she did want to hide her background, and I'll repost here with the info on the marriage cert once I have it.

SS, are you saying that Edith Winifred may have made up a new name for herself, Frader, and commited bigamy?
Possible of course, but would she then actually say her father was called Elias when she married Johnny Basham?

[softly softly]

SS, are you saying that Edith Winifred may have made up a new name for herself, Frader, and commited bigamy?
Possible of course, but would she then actually say her father was called Elias when she married Johnny Basham?

Hi jonwarn, I just wanted to see exactly what the gro birth cert recorded. I have no idea of who Winnie really is. I do think that whoever was the informant on her death registration had a good knowledge of who she was particularly with regard to death age and exact name. Await like others details of marriage certificate

SS

[wilcoxon]

Just butting in, if Winifred really was from South Wales as Johnny was,  it's not likely that any of the wittnesses would be relatives. According to local (Wrexham)  accounts he moved  to Wrexham in 1911. It's a  waiting game.😉

https://www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/15941631.achievements-of-wrexham-sports-legend-to-take-pride-of-place-at-towns-boxing-club/

[BushInn1746]

I seem to be having difficulties in finding two other FRADER Births in other records.

Birth
Not on Index scan but a Note See D76
1875 September Qtr
Helen Colquhoun FRADER
Marylebone
SEE D76 [D76 not seen]

Someone has made a "theory" only.
Which Free BMD added.
[but not a fact it seems?].


Numerous references to Helen Colquhoun with other surnames.


Birth
Scan of Index seen (surname clear)
1891 September Qtr
Eether FRADER [indexed by Free BMD as Esther]
District Leeds 9B page 460 or 160


There is a 1902 handwritten England & Wales Inland Revenue Death Duty Index registration (all are handwritten) but no Volume and page number specified, no Executor Administrator given and no death Registration for:- 

FRADER Felix Victor Louis
Date of Death 21 Aug 02

I wonder if anything in the E & W Probate Index.

 ---------------

I've got one in my wider family where it says see Letter / number reference in GRO Index and the Birth has been Registered some years later by the Father of the child, but the child has also used her Mother's Surname of Smith later on, as well.

The Teenage Son in the household has had sex with their housekeeper Miss Smith and a child was born who used both her Father's surname and her Mother's surname as she wished.

After a second child was born to the Housekeeper, the Householder's Son then married her.

Perhaps his Father who employed the Housekeeper said to his Son, is the 2nd child yours? Perhaps you had better marry her?

The second child only used the surname Smith and her Birth was never registered.

Mark

[softly softly]

Birth
Not on Index scan but a Note See D76
1875 September Qtr
Helen Colquhoun FRADER
Marylebone
SEE D76 [D76 not seen]



Marriages Jun 1897   

FRASER    Helen Colquhoun        Marylebone    1a   1123    
King    Cecil Tooke B                        Marylebone    1a   1123    

Marriage image on Ancestry.

SS

[wilcoxon]

I have Winnie's marriage to John Michael Basham in Bangor, Caenarvonshire in 1914.
On the 1921 census she was in Llandudno (birth place given as Swansea) and in 1939 she was in Agincourt Street, Newport.

Other than that I can't find any other info for her -  does anyone know anything about her?

any help is appreciated

There are reports in various newspapers in August 1913 after the death of boxer Harry Price .
Edited
Appeared for the prisoner, applied for bail, remarking that Basham was a married man and lived at Wrexham Barracks. He was Special Reservist attached to the Royal Welsh Fusiliers.

[Richard19]

On 21 August 1913 Johnny Basham fought South African Harry Price and both gave heavy blows to each other from the start, Johnny knocked Harry down in the 11th round, Harry didn't recover and unfortunately died the following morning.
Johnny was arrested on suspicion of causing grievous bodily harm, and Price's subsequent death led to a manslaughter charge but the magistrate found that the fight was held fairly and Johnny was acquitted of the charge.
Winnie would have been with Johnny at the time, but was very much in the limelight.

I have Winnie's marriage to John Michael Basham in Bangor, Caenarvonshire in 1914.
On the 1921 census she was in Llandudno (birth place given as Swansea) and in 1939 she was in Agincourt Street, Newport.

Other than that I can't find any other info for her -  does anyone know anything about her?

any help is appreciated

There are reports in various newspapers in August 1913 after the death of boxer Harry Price .
Edited
Appeared for the prisoner, applied for bail, remarking that Basham was a married man and lived at Wrexham Barracks. He was Special Reservist attached to the Royal Welsh Fusiliers.

[Richard19]

I don't have Winnie's death cert (she died on 17 May 1966) but it's highly likely it was her only daughter Winifred Margaret Burman (nee Basham) who registered the death or her son-in-law Arthur George Burman who died Oct to Dec 1966 - I can't see it being anyone else

SS, are you saying that Edith Winifred may have made up a new name for herself, Frader, and commited bigamy?
Possible of course, but would she then actually say her father was called Elias when she married Johnny Basham?

Hi jonwarn, I just wanted to see exactly what the gro birth cert recorded. I have no idea of who Winnie really is. I do think that whoever was the informant on her death registration had a good knowledge of who she was particularly with regard to death age and exact name. Await like others details of marriage certificate

SS