Author Topic: Possibly French? Six roundels, three stars...  (Read 138 times)

Offline sheeponahill

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Possibly French? Six roundels, three stars...
« on: Thursday 20 November 25 18:10 GMT (UK) »
I would be grateful for help please. What coat of arms is this likely to be? I have seen it carved into wood (and so with no colour to it). It may be French.

I have tried my luck with AI image searches but with no real success. Google first identifies it as the following, but then denies all knowledge of it..!
"The coat of arms for the Serizay family of Poitou, France, features a shield described in heraldry as Fascé d'argent et de gueules de six pièces, chaque fasce d'argent chargée de trois tourteaux de sable. This translates to a field with six horizontal bands (fasces), alternating silver (argent) and red (gueules), with each silver band containing three black roundels (called tourteaux de sable or pellets). "

Offline Zaphod99

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Re: Possibly French? Six roundels, three stars...
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 20 November 25 18:27 GMT (UK) »
That blazon, the technical description of the coat of arms, is either wrong or referring to something quite different. Or possibly the diagram is incomplete.  There are no alternating bands shown. The stars aren't mentioned.  5-pointed mullets or 6-pointed etoiles.

It might be different in French heraldry, but I've never seen gules spelled in that way in UK heraldry.

Zaph


Offline sheeponahill

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Re: Possibly French? Six roundels, three stars...
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 20 November 25 19:44 GMT (UK) »
Hi Zaph, thanks for ignoring the iffy Google answer, do you have any thoughts on how I could go about identifying the shield?
Best, S

Offline Little Nell

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Re: Possibly French? Six roundels, three stars...
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 20 November 25 22:17 GMT (UK) »
Without any idea of the colours, it is very difficult to say whether it is French, or another nationality.  There is nothing specific in the charges which mark it out as specifically continental or English or Scottish.

I think the blazon would be:

X, 6 roundels A , three, two, one, on a chief B, 3 molets Y

Specific colours would be substituted for the letters the letters.

Nell
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Offline sheeponahill

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Re: Possibly French? Six roundels, three stars...
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 20 November 25 23:58 GMT (UK) »
The shield is on an old wooden box, bought in France and certainly French in style. I hope this helps.

Offline Zaphod99

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Re: Possibly French? Six roundels, three stars...
« Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 08:16 »
How did you get from the photograph of the box to the drawing of the shield?  I'm trying to get to the bottom of how the errors were introduced.

Update:  AI interprets this slightly differently from the diagram.

"The blazon you’ve written is:

Fascé d'argent et de gueules de six pièces, chaque fasce d'argent chargée de trois tourteaux de sable.

Here is what it means in plain English heraldic terminology:

“Barry of six Argent and Gules, each Argent bar charged with three torteaux Sable.”

And in simple explanation:

Fascé de six pièces → “Barry of six”: the shield is divided horizontally into six equal horizontal stripes.

D’argent et de gueules → The stripes alternate silver (white) and red, starting with Argent at the top unless otherwise stated.

Chaque fasce d’argent chargée de trois tourteaux de sable → Each of the white (Argent) stripes carries three black roundels.

So visually: a shield with six horizontal alternating white and red bands; on each white band sit three black discs."

Where did your original French blazon come from? How did you find it? It is clear that there are not three discs on each white band.

AI again: What the blazon should say for a 3-2-1 arrangement

If the shield is barry of six argent and gules, and bears six black roundels arranged 3-2-1 overall, the appropriate description would be more like:

“Fascé d’argent et de gueules de six pièces, chargé de six tourteaux de sable ordonnés 3, 2 et 1.”

or in English:

“Barry of six Argent and Gules, charged with six torteaux Sable arranged 3, 2, and 1.”

The following is a link to a very large collection of French heraldry, but a quick examination failed to find your particular example.

https://search.brave.com/images?q=Fasc%C3%A9+d%E2%80%99argent+et+de+gueules+de+six+pi%C3%A8ces%2C+charg%C3%A9+de+six+tourteaux+de+sable+ordonn%C3%A9s+3%2C+2+et+1.%E2%80%9D&source=web


Finally I now see that gueules is the traditional French spelling of our corrupted version, gules!

Zaph

Offline MollyC

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Re: Possibly French? Six roundels, three stars...
« Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 09:19 »
The colours appear to be represented by the various textures in the carving, a convention known as hatching.  See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatching_(heraldry)

The main background appears to be black (sable) and the background of the top band (chief) is blue (azure).  Some small areas may be gold (or) - small dots, it is is difficult to see in the photo.  Plain areas would be silver (argent).  It is surrounded by a border (bordure) which is red (gules).


Offline sheeponahill

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Re: Possibly French? Six roundels, three stars...
« Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 09:37 »
Hi Molly, Hi Zaph, thank you for looking at this. The simplified shield in my initial posting was meant as a more clearly legible representation, created for the post and not really from anywhere. Sorry if I have introduced mistakes and confused things.
Ultimately, I am trying to identify the carved shield on the box. All other bits of information are my own unhelpful additions!