Author Topic: A Great Grandfather Mystery (Help please)  (Read 418 times)

Online mr_edd

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A Great Grandfather Mystery (Help please)
« on: Saturday 15 November 25 12:23 GMT (UK) »
Hello All

I wonder if someone might be willing to offer me a fresh pair of eyes & an unbiased opinion on this.

I will stick to the facts as best I can but before doing so must say I have spent the last twenty years tracing back the wrong JONES family in Oswestry, I only learned last week that I had bought the wrong birth certificate some twenty years ago & as a result of "Ancestry Hints & badly put together trees" is what led to my big mistake.

My Great Grandfather was Edward Jones born Oswestry c1855 he married Ann Williams at Morton Parish Church 21 Jul 1876 aged 24 (1852) & there is a line through the father. Edward's occupation was Collier.

When my Grandmother Elizabeth Jones was born in Oswestry a year later in 1877 father is recorded as Edward Jones a Coal Miner (Edward also appears in some censuses as a Well Sinker).

In the census of 1871 Edward is with a Joseph Jones & wife Elizabeth & down as aged 16 (1855) a BOARDER.

In 1861 Joseph & Elizabeth have a Mathew E Jones aged 6 (1855) BOARDER, birthplace N.K

I cannot find a Mathew E Jones birth, or death or later census for him.

In 1891 Edward is visiting Joseph & Elizabeth & Joseph now calls Edward his SON, he calls Edward's wife his Daughter in law, & Edward's Children as his Grandchildren. So it looks like there was acceptance eventually.

Joseph Jones had been a nightmare because there are two that get mixed up in Ancestry trees, one born 1818 Membury / Oswestry & the other born Whittington 1832

Years ago I went down the 1832 route discovering that that Joseph had been born Joseph Richards to Thomas Richards & Elizabeth Jones in Whittington. That Joseph Jones had married an Eliza Niccolls & I saw Joseph's father as Thomas Richards. In1841 Joseph is Joseph Richards a scholar, in 1851 he is Joseph Richards a Mason & 1871 he is Joseph Jones a Stone Mason, all three of those censuses were on Willow Street.

Like I said that's now the wrong family for me.

The Joseph Jones for me is the one born 1818 Membury / Oswestry, his father was John Jones a Parish Clerk of Morton.

Joseph married on 5 Nov 1841 at St Oswald's, Oswestry to an Elizabeth Jones! so of course her name did not change.

Elizabeth's father was David Jones an AG LAB from Sweeney.

The one & only Child in Joseph & Elizabeth's marriage was Edward c1855 & considering they married some 13 or 14 years prior then that's a long time for a Child, My guess is Joseph was infertile & perhaps Elizabeth was desperate to be a Mother & went & did the deed with a male unknown.

Edward lived mainly around Sweeney, Morton & Nant-Y-Caws as did Joseph & Elizabeth.

For those of you on Ancestry I have built a test tree called "Joseph Jones 1818 test tree" if that helps to understand this mess better!

Despite years of trying I have never found a birth certificate or baptism for the right Edward Jones.

So ultimately my question here is do you think the Mathew E Jones in 1861 is Edward?

Hope someone takes up the challenge & apologies in advance if this one fries your brain!



Offline May2488

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Re: A Great Grandfather Mystery (Help please)
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 15 November 25 17:25 GMT (UK) »
Ignore me realized my mistake!
Botterill and Lydon- Yorkshire area
Cox, Nailard and Thorpe - Sussex

Online Cas (stallc)

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Re: A Great Grandfather Mystery (Help please)
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 15 November 25 18:11 GMT (UK) »
Possible birth regarding Matthew E

JENKINS, MATTHEW  EDWARD     -  No mother's name recorded so illegitimate
GRO Reference: 1855  M Quarter in OSWESTRY  Volume 06A  Page 644

Instant digital download available for £3.00 from GRO if unaware.

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp  Need to register but index is free to search, if not already.

Possibly this child was 'adopted' or taken in by the childless Jones family.  Another possibility is Joseph COULD be bio father, but doubtful.  MEJ maybe a relative of Joseph or Elizabeth nee Jones, only DNA can help speculation.

Added - Not finding the above MEJ on any census in area, so could be your Edward with links to the Jones census you have.

There is also an adopted son Charles Jones with couple in 1881 age 4, so they were open to raising others. By 1911 he is adopted son of Edward.

Cas
Census information is Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Squire/Thomas/Williams/Bowen/Lewis/Davies/Jones/Rees/Morgan/Lloyd - Glamorgan
Lewis/Davies - Breckonshire
Davies/Roderick - Myddfai Carms
Thackwell/Thomas - Hereford/Monmouthshire
Shoemac/Squire/Keirle/Small - Somerset
Berry/Baggot/Lee/Clayton - Lancs
Yelland/Bray/Trethewey - Cornwall
Baggot/Hurley/Keaveny/Shiel/Flynn - Ireland

Online mr_edd

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Re: A Great Grandfather Mystery (Help please)
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 15 November 25 20:22 GMT (UK) »
Thank you for your helpful input CAS

I shall follow that up, Yes the Charles Jones had always bothered me as well. My Grandmother Elizabeth Jones born Oswestry in 1877 according to census has a brother also Charles 1877 but can't find anything about him.

I also note that in 1871 with Joseph & Elizabeth besides Edward Jones 16 BOARDER is a Joseph Jones aged 14 NEPHEW, never figured that one out either.

Regards
Ed


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Re: A Great Grandfather Mystery (Help please)
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 15 November 25 20:59 GMT (UK) »
Hi Cas

I have got the birth certificate, the mother is named.

Birthdate looks like Twenty Second February 1855
The Workhouse Oswestry.
Mother Elizabeth Jenkins
No father named.
Registered 8th March 1855

Online Cas (stallc)

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Re: A Great Grandfather Mystery (Help please)
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 15 November 25 21:07 GMT (UK) »
Charles Jones - unless you have a birth record to prove he is Edwards son, I would think this is the adopted son from 1881 with Joseph/Elizabeth.

Possible 1861 for Nephew in 1871

Trefonen, Shropshire
Joseph Jones 42 Head
Ann Jones 44 Wife
Sarah Jones 17 Daughter
Watkin Jones   9   Son
William Jones 6 Son
Joseph Jones 4 Son

If access - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/8767/records/19757063

Watkin has mother's maiden Jones, so possibly connected to wife Elizabeth as a brother for Joseph would not be called same. But wife could be a sister to Joseph?

Trefonen is a small village located approximately three miles (4.8 km) south-west of Oswestry, and three miles east of the England-Wales border, in Shropshire, England.

Will see if can locate Elizabeth Jenkins or a death in area....

Cas
Census information is Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Squire/Thomas/Williams/Bowen/Lewis/Davies/Jones/Rees/Morgan/Lloyd - Glamorgan
Lewis/Davies - Breckonshire
Davies/Roderick - Myddfai Carms
Thackwell/Thomas - Hereford/Monmouthshire
Shoemac/Squire/Keirle/Small - Somerset
Berry/Baggot/Lee/Clayton - Lancs
Yelland/Bray/Trethewey - Cornwall
Baggot/Hurley/Keaveny/Shiel/Flynn - Ireland

Online Cas (stallc)

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Re: A Great Grandfather Mystery (Help please)
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 15 November 25 21:43 GMT (UK) »
Not locating any EJ which could be childbearing age in or around Oswestry...possibly came from bordering Denbighshire? Only checked 1851

Difficult to pin down without more detail.
Census information is Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Squire/Thomas/Williams/Bowen/Lewis/Davies/Jones/Rees/Morgan/Lloyd - Glamorgan
Lewis/Davies - Breckonshire
Davies/Roderick - Myddfai Carms
Thackwell/Thomas - Hereford/Monmouthshire
Shoemac/Squire/Keirle/Small - Somerset
Berry/Baggot/Lee/Clayton - Lancs
Yelland/Bray/Trethewey - Cornwall
Baggot/Hurley/Keaveny/Shiel/Flynn - Ireland

Online mr_edd

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Re: A Great Grandfather Mystery (Help please)
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 15 November 25 22:51 GMT (UK) »
Hi Cas

Further to my last message I just ran DNA & got a great hit on Ancestry.

User name epowrie (unfortunately last online 11 months ago)
half 3rd cousin 1x removed or 4th cousin | Parent 1
Shared DNA: 30 cM across 2 segments

She has a James Jenkins 1836 Oswestry with parents James Jenkins 1801-1851 & Mary Mansell 1799- but she does not record a sister Elizabeth Jenkins 1836. Another tree owner adgysart2
has James Jenkins 1801-1851 marrying Mary Mansell, he has Son James Mansell 1836 Oswestry with other siblings including a sister Elizabeth Jenkins 1837 Oswestry!!!!

What do you make of this now?

Online Cas (stallc)

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Re: A Great Grandfather Mystery (Help please)
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 15 November 25 23:11 GMT (UK) »
Sounds good Ed, particularly if you have DNA to back up.

Would keep options open as work in progress...

Well done!

Added - Just a friendly reminder....would not copy info from others trees unless you can verifiy, would self research and build your own tree from records.

Census information is Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Squire/Thomas/Williams/Bowen/Lewis/Davies/Jones/Rees/Morgan/Lloyd - Glamorgan
Lewis/Davies - Breckonshire
Davies/Roderick - Myddfai Carms
Thackwell/Thomas - Hereford/Monmouthshire
Shoemac/Squire/Keirle/Small - Somerset
Berry/Baggot/Lee/Clayton - Lancs
Yelland/Bray/Trethewey - Cornwall
Baggot/Hurley/Keaveny/Shiel/Flynn - Ireland