Smith's help!

[Cas (stallc)]

Yes, a great find, wilcoxon.
So now we know when John William died.

So if Margaret was illegitimate, then maybe the John Smith burial at Philips Park in 1872 is the right one. I would have thought that Mary would be buried there as well, probably in a common grave?

Speaking of Broughton!
Playing around with a godparent search again (despite myself!)
What is this all about?
From Lancs OPC
Baptism at Bradford St Brigid, 7 Nov 1880
Joanna Burns, filia Jacobi Burns & Mariae (formerly Smith)
Born 24 Oct 1880
Abode 56 Gibbons Street
Godparents Arthur McCandrew?, Margareta Welsh
Notes: Ipsa matrimonium contraxit die 3 mensis Maii anno 1919 cum Leonardo Broughton in hac Ecclesia Stae Brigidae apud Bradford. Praesentibus testibus Jacobo Burns et Helenae Broughton. J. C. Holland

Not to harp on, but another link above which ties both families, and makes it seem unlikely that James Burns & Mary Smith nee Byrne/Burns were siblings.

Baptism above of Joanna or Annie/Anne as later called, married Ernest Hesford 1902 and then Leonard Broughton in 1919. Annie can found in census with parents in 1891 see reply # 60 by John. Also on census with the Holland family as Anne, sister to Catherine. Birthdates match on pension record of death of first Hesford husband, and marriages all link see reply #65.

Anne Broughton buried with John William Smith and sister Margaret Pendlebury nee Smith  (Margaret baptised Burns, reply #51, by John) Burial for Anne and others link in reply #63 found by Wilcoxon.

Godparent in above baptism, Arthur McAndry/McAndrew was 3mths in 1861 (see reply #24 by Wilcoxon) by 1879 became stepson of Honora/Ann McAndry nee Byrne.

Godparents were normally chosen around the same age/birth decade as parents, or young enough, who could then step in if parents were absent or died. (and still be young) Not sure if it was one from each side or random.

Not looked for the Welsh connection or Smiths. Best on new thread for those, if intended, as lengthy threads can sometimes have info lost or is hard to find, or take in, amongst a lot of posts.

Just a few thoughts from this lenghthy thread research. FH can be costly, but if able at some point, I think the 1879  marriage for James Burns & Mary Smith could be informative.

Both marriages 1864 & 1879 fathers should hopefully match, and confirm. Also if Honora/Ann Byrne is a sister to Mary, it should be same, unless a curve ball drops.

[ManchesterJohnson]

Cas, thank you and agreed in the long thread. My head is spinning from all the info.

On the Hollands side of things, I’m now happy that Florence Holland is the daughter of Ben and Catherine Holland, with Catherine being the daughter of James Byrne/Burns and Mary Byrne. I’m happy this connection works because one of Florence’s brothers has my Grandmother Catherine Cain as a Godparent.

As you say, there are still some questions at the very top of this tree.

When I get the certs, I’ll post a new thread. Just to help me, was this ever the right place for this thread or should in be in another location?

[Cas (stallc)]

No all ok, posting on begginers board lets others know that you are just starting out.

Other than that, you could have posted on the Lancs board, and mentioned you were beginning research, it makes no difference. Normally those well versed in FH don't post on this board.

I will say you have been quite lucky to have so much info given starting with the surname Smith.

Very few (general look ups) go thís length....

[Cas (stallc)]

Don't forget to link this thread to the new certs thread or info could be duplicated.

A bit of a no no on RootsChat, as it is a time waster for others researching info already found.

Added - am sure those involved in researching this thread would like to see the outcome/info from those certs. So maybe post here the new thread link and/or name, so we can be aware and find it.

[ManchesterJohnson]

Thanks for the guidance Cas

I have ordered the marriage cert for James Burns / Mary Smith in 1879.

I'm warming to the idea of this Mary being Mary Jane's mother, remarrying after the death of John Smith. My aunt, whose memory is failing called Florence Holland her mum's step sister, implying that Mary Jane re-married. I have a pretty good record of Mary Jane until her death in 1921 so she didn't remarry.

If Florence was just a cousin, where did the step-sister story come from? If, as we are now looking at, Mary SMith remarried after John Smith's death, then Catherine Burns, Florence's mother) would have been Mary Jane's step-sister.

I'm going to adjust my tree and see how it looks.

We'll see what the above marriage cert says.

[Cas (stallc)]

Couple more baptisms at Bradford St Brigid
8 July 1883
Catherina Byrne, filia Jacobi Byrne & Mariae (formerly Byrne)
Born 26 Jan 1883
Abode 10 Chatham Street
Godparents Thomas Welsh, Maria Joanna Smith
   
24 October 1886
Jacobus Burns, filius Jacobi Burns & Mariae (formerly Byrne)
Born 15 Oct 1886
Abode 75 Simpson Street
Godparents Jacobi McAndrew, Anna McDonnough

I am not sure where the step sisters story comes in, but Mary Jane Cain nee smith was godmother to Catherine Holland nee Burns/Byrne, as above states.

Also following the evidence/records, it looks very much like they shared the same mother, Mary. 

So were also likely half siblings, not step siblings. The children of MJ & Catherine would be cousins. 

The family from records appear a very close and tight knit family group. The Cain children were also godparents to other Holland children. (see records posted by Jonwarrn)

Hopefully the certs may shed more light. Other than that I can only suggest DNA testing, if not already.

Added - A possibility, if receptive, would also ask Aunt to test, as a generation closer. You could manage/be manager of her test if she is unable, once results are in.

Cas

[ManchesterJohnson]

As per the super help I have been receiving here, I've started a continuation thread  - Smith's Help 2!, which hopefully you can find here...

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=895347.0