Smith's help!

[wilcoxon]

Not much help really but ..... could be.
John Hall Pendlebury, retiree , buried 12 March 1938 aged 64.
Margaret Pendlebury buried 30 June 1969 aged 93.
Buried at Phillips Park Cemetery Manchester
 In  the same plot G 427

Also in same plot
John William Smith Age71
Birth Dateabt 1873
Burial Date17 Feb 1944
Philips Park Cemetery
Cemetery Section G Grave Number 427 Occupation Laborer

However there are other people in the same section / Grave /number
None of these have names that we have turned up in the thread.

[Cas (stallc)]

Another good find John to cement the Cain/Smith/Burns family....

Great find Wilcoxon...possibly JWS did not marry?

Guess the OP is going to be chuffed. Hope the 1864 marriage cert is positive also

[wilcoxon]

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/176087856/john-william-smith

Not too sure about Anne Broughton, but it does seem to be a private plot as it has a headstone.

[jonwarrn]

Yes, a great find, wilcoxon.
So now we know when John William died.

So if Margaret was illegitimate, then maybe the John Smith burial at Philips Park in 1872 is the right one. I would have thought that Mary would be buried there as well, probably in a common grave?

Speaking of Broughton!
Playing around with a godparent search again (despite myself!)
What is this all about?
From Lancs OPC
Baptism at Bradford St Brigid, 7 Nov 1880
Joanna Burns, filia Jacobi Burns & Mariae (formerly Smith)
Born 24 Oct 1880
Abode 56 Gibbons Street
Godparents Arthur McCandrew?, Margareta Welsh
Notes: Ipsa matrimonium contraxit die 3 mensis Maii anno 1919 cum Leonardo Broughton in hac Ecclesia Stae Brigidae apud Bradford. Praesentibus testibus Jacobo Burns et Helenae Broughton. J. C. Holland

[jonwarrn]

By the way, a marriage in Dec 1879, Manchester 8d 384
Burns, James
Smith, Mary
(also Patrick Gerity and Mary Burns!)

Lancashire BMD
1879
James Burns + Mary Byrne
James Burns + Mary Smith
Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended
Ref MCR_RM/97/113

[jonwarrn]

Couple more baptisms at Bradford St Brigid
8 July 1883
Catherina Byrne, filia Jacobi Byrne & Mariae (formerly Byrne)
Born 26 Jan 1883
Abode 10 Chatham Street
Godparents Thomas Welsh, Maria Joanna Smith
   
24 October 1886
Jacobus Burns, filius Jacobi Burns & Mariae (formerly Byrne)
Born 15 Oct 1886
Abode 75 Simpson Street
Godparents Jacobi McAndrew, Anna McDonnough

[jonwarrn]

Struggling with them in 1881, but this could be them in 1891 in Manchester
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:78GF-R3Z

From transcripts, hope they are right
James Burns 49, born Kildare Ireland
Mary Burns 49 Sligo Ireland
Annie Burns 10 Bradford nr Manchester
Catherine Burns 7 Bradford nr Manchester
James Burns 4 Bradford nr Manchester

Is Mary the mother of the three Smith children with the McAndrews in Bradford?

[jonwarrn]

So that's the family Cas found earlier in Reply #49 (sorry, Cas!) but maybe then James Burns senior wasn't Mary's brother, but her second husband?
Possibly James Burns and Mary Smith nee Byrne/Burms not related, just a coincidence of names?

[Cas (stallc)]

Intriguing finds John, although could be confusing unless in a tree. I did mention there are clues in the bapts in reply # 35 earlier but never thought there would be so much!

1911 for Catherine Holland nee Burns has her father James, widow, age 68 b Wicklow and also married sister Annie Hesford in household in Bradford, Manchester

1911 - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/2352/records/26046436

Think this is Annie & Catherine in 1901. 41 Chatham St, Catherine recorded as Kate
1901  - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7814/records/23695965

Henry Spelman 23 Head
Mary Spelman 19 Wife
Henry Spelman 4/12 Son
Ellen Clabby 37 Mother-in-law
Joseph Clabby 11 Brother-in-law
Annie Burns 20 Boarder
Kate Burns   17   Boarder

1939 for James jnr has him born 15 Oct 1887 (not out of the ordinary to be a year out)

Guess the 1864 & 1879 marriages would have same father for Mary Burns married Smith then Burns and she was mother to the Smith & Burns children which would make them half siblings not cousins!

It does make sense..needs paper or DNA verification

Wicklow & Kildare are bordering

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/irl/KID
KILDARE, a county of Ireland, province of Leinster, 37 m. long and 20 broad; bounded E by Dublin and Wicklow

Cas