Marriage certificates

[overlandermatt]

I don't have access to many older family documents but fortunately, I do have my grandparents' marriage certificates from 1819. It's great to see it in colour and the corresponding stamp after so many black and white scans from the GRO... My 19-year old grandmother had obviously decided to give her age as 21 for some reason...

In addition to the standard marriage certificate, there is a more colourful document and I would be interested to know the significance of this (if any). I've not come across this previously.

Thank you in advance for any information you can share about this.

There is an old family tale that suggests my grandmother was going to wed another man who died from flu. I guess that is something that I won't ever be able to confirm but what a time of turmoil that must have been for these young people with war ending, a major pandemic and the start of married life...

[maddys52]

One is the certified copy of the marriage certificate (dated 8 March 1919), the other is the Licence (dated 5 March 1919). You are indeed fortunate to have the original copies. Possibly she fibbed about her age to avoid having her father's permission, being under age?

https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Marriage_Allegations,_Bonds_and_Licences_in_England_and_Wales

Modified to add:
Although looking at the witnesses to the marriage, one is Wm Ed BROCK - her father?

[Neale1961]

The top one with green print is a "Certified Copy" of the marriage entry. It is all written by the same hand. It does not show the original signatures of each individual party.

[Jon_ni]

Possibly she fibbed about her age to avoid having her father's permission, being under age

That was my first thought too, seeing as to how they paid for a licence for a speedy wedding that dispensed with the calling of Banns in the church and possible objections from her father or any other person present, But the marriage witnesses in the church were Wm Ed Brock and M J Brock (her father was William Edward Brock) so either the witness was father or a brother named after him and there was family knowledge and support.

The Licence was for Arthur George Pope & Dorothy Brock, both Full Age. Wording includes "And we being willing and that these your desires may the more speedily obtain a due effect, and to the end thereof that the Marriage may be publically and lawfully solemized in the Parish Church of Stoke Damarel, Devon, without the publication of Banns. ...Provided always, that if in this case there shall hereafter appear any fraud suggested to us, or truth suppressed at the time of obtaining this Licence, then the Licence is Void, and of no effect in Law, as if the same had never been granted and in that case we inhibit all Ministers, if anything of the premises shall come to their knowledge, that they do not proceed to the solemization of the said Marriage, without consulting us or our Vicar General
Valid for 3 months. Dated 5 March 1919, married 8 March 1919 so only 3 days later.

The Licence was presumably desired as the groom Arthur George Pope was a Private R.M.L.I Royal Marine Light Infantry onboard HMS Carnarvon and likely had only a few days shore leave.
Arthur George Pope, Service number 13994, born 14 April 1893, served on the Carnarvon from 8 Oct 1918 to 25 Aug 1919 (possibly up to the point it became a training ship which was sometime in 1919 - wikipedia). He continued in service in Plymouth Division and onboard a couple of ships till 13 April 1932, having enlisted 21 Mar 1908 in London, being underage for the 1st 3 years. The date of Marriage Plymouth 8 March 1919 is on his Service Record at the top, incorrectly at bottom as When married: 8 March 1917.
https://findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM/ADM159/44771
They married after the end of WW1 (Armistice Day 11 November 1918) but before the Treaty of Versailles 28 June 1919.

Most people didn't keep their marriage Licences, is superceeded by the marriage cert.
There may be another copy in the Archives of the Diocese of Exeter https://devon-cat.swheritage.org.uk/records/DEX
older ones are deposited https://devon-cat.swheritage.org.uk/records/DEX/7/a some may still be at the Diocesan Archives at Exeter Cathedral. Registers of Licences issued were maintained just as Parish churches kept Registers of Banns, some of which we can see online pre-1837 and during civil-registration.

The Church bound Marriage Register is viewable on Findmypast https://findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBPRS/M/35279008/1 and has the bride and groom's + witnesses' signatures
2 books kept one for the church, the other for Devonport GRO (deposited with them when full); both signed on the day.
Devonport abolished 1937, becoming Plymouth https://ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/devonport.html

Yours does not have signatures as is an official copy made by the minister on the same day for the Bride & Groom as they paid for a paper cert. [If you ordered a copy from the GRO in Southport today via www,gro,gov,uk that would be of the later quarterly copies made and returned by the minister S G Ponsonby for the period 1st Jan -31st March 1919 ie all his handwriting. If you instead ordered a marriage cert from the local District, Plymouth Registrar's Office that would show the signatures IF they have the ability to scan & print from their now fully filled book, or could just be typewritten, just as valid legally]

Why did she need to say Full age and 21 if was 19 and had father's/family approval can't think of a good reason. Perhaps the Bishop assumed, we don't know who gave the info one, or other or both, but as the Licence was for 2 people of Full age they wouldn't have want to highlight and correct it on the 8 March as the Vicar might not have proceeded. After the marriage (whether by Licence or Banns) if someone of Full age turns out to be actually a minor it does not make the marriage void [many married by Banns underage in churches distant from their family home with a congregation of strangers unlikely to object and perhaps father totally unaware].
AnthonyMMM may have opinion if he happens to read your post.

[Jon_ni]

It is all written by the same hand (by the registrar

Vicar / Rector who performed the marriage on the day of issue.
I Stewart Gordon Ponsonby of Stoke Damerel ...certify this to be a true copy of Entry No. 205 in the Register Book of Marriages of the said Church and that such Register Book is now legally in my custody.

(the Registrar would provide copies of Registrar Office or Registrar Attended Marriages issued on the day of registration or could  do so once he had received his fully completed book of 100, 200 or 500 marriages from the church).

[Jon_ni]

St Andrew with St Luke, Stoke Damerel (under the A of Nelson Ward) is half a mile north of the Marine Barracks in Stonehouse. Is the mother church of Devonport and deeply associated with the Naval Dockyard. There is an Edgeumbe Street by Stonehouse Bridge.
http://rootschat.com/links/01u2g
http://rootschat.com/links/01u2h

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/StokeDamerel
https://www.stoke-damerel-church.co.uk

[overlandermatt]

Thank you for the detailed replies to the original question. It is interesting to learn about the marriage license... I can't say with much certainty why it was required - the bride's parents seem to have approved given their attendance. Perhaps it was related to Arthur needing to return to his ship... I do know that his time on HMS Caernarvon came to an end in July 2019 anyway and we was then land based for a while and embarked aboard the boys training ship HMS Impregnable for some time after that...

The first daughter was born in March 1920, the first relative I can find that was born in a maternity hospital. It's possible that Caernaron was going back to sea again, hence the need to skip the banns. Sadly there the readily available ship's log only runs until November 1918...

I've got some work to do tracking down Arthur's siblings to see when they married and whether the mother or other family was a witness. She might not have been too well - she died in 1922, lived across the Tamar in Cornwall and I'm sure I have a document somewhere suggesting she was blind...   

Prior to the pair marrying, I know Arthur returned to Plymouth in April 1918 until October. Perhaps he met his future wife at that time or if not then soon after returning from the Atlantic convoys after the armistice.

Thanks again for the help.

[Mabel Bagshawe]

I can't see anything suggesting his mother was blind, although she was a tailoress, which may have put quite a strain on her eyesight.

[Jon_ni]

his time on HMS Caernarvon came to an end in July 2019... the first daughter was born in March 1920.

You've likely typed from memory was 25 Aug 1919 a/a followed by Plymouth Div 26 Aug to 14 Oct then HMS Powerful which was renamed Impregnable Nov 1919
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01u2f/

I see on the 1921 census 19 June was living at home in Hobart Street whilst working on the Impregnable and Dorothy was listed as aged 20 years 8 months and Doris Ivy 8 months fitting with her birth registration Q4 1920 and DOB on the 1939 Register in Gosport of 23 Sep 1920 (presumably registered few weeks after birth in the next quarter). Dorothy born 23 Oct 1900. Iris Doreen Q2 1922 17 Jun 1922. 1 record closed: son/grandson born Q3 1937