Baptised twice?

[UKgirl]

I have an interesting example of a baby baptised twice on the same day!

This was in LIverpool. The mother was Irish and the father was English and it was their first child. The baby was baptised in the local CofE and in a local Catholic church.

I imagine the CofE was the first baptism early in the day, and then after getting home, the mother was unhappy. Did she sneak out secretly to the Catholic church while her husband was at work? Or did she get him to acquiesce to her wishes?

Either way, the mother obviously won the final argument because all their future babies were baptised in Catholic churches (under Latin names, which helped to make them quite elusive to researchers).

UKgirl

[hanes teulu]

Did the Catholic baptism name a Patrinus or Matrina?

[UKgirl]

Helpfully, the mother's maiden name was included.

Also, both parents' names were given in Latin. And of course, not everyone knows that the Latin version of William is Guilelmus. In cases where this is the father's name, such baptisms may remain unnoticed - hiding in plain sight, as it were. The first baptism in CofE would put you off the scent, especially when there is no family knowledge of a Catholic connection.

UKgirl

[hanes teulu]

I repeat - was a Patrinus and Matrina named?

[UKgirl]

Yes, sponsors' names were given. If you are suggesting that this proves that on that first Catholic baptism, the father must have been aware of what was happening? I expect that he was. I was just trying to make a little joke (about him being at work and not knowing what was going on.)

But neither of the sponsors had the father's family name.

I imagine that they had a bit of a squabble and the father gave in to placate his wife. Perhaps he was a kind and generous man and didn't really care one way or another. Who knows what went on?

Or, perhaps the important thing for them was that they covered both bases?

It's worth noting that most of their children' births went unregistered - so probably the family was a bit wary of authority.

UKgirl

[hanes teulu]

Yes, sponsors' names were given. If you are suggesting that this proves that on that first Catholic baptism, the father must have been aware of what was happening?

I don't speculate. The father may not have been aware of what was happening. But the presence of sponsors indicates it was not "off the cuff"

[UKgirl]

Hanes Teulu, thank you for pointing that out.

I have just looked at the record again, just to double check. The baptisms took place on a Sunday, and there were 3 baptisms in the Catholic church on that day. And yes, there are 2 sponsors, one of whom I believe to be the sister of the mother. The male is unknown to me, but "seems" to have an Irish name.

Does it need a lot of planning to arrange a baptism with sponsors? Could it be a rush job: just grab your sister and some male you and your sister know? Or do you have to arrange it in advance?

I am surprised that it is on a Sunday - so morning worship & baptism in the CofE (presumably with the father's parents?) and afternoon/evening in the Catholic church (while the father was in the pub?)

The mind boggles!

UKgirl

[hanes teulu]

I'm not familiar with the Catholic ceremony but the administration of the sacraments of the CoE required the officiating minister to meet parentsgodparents** beforehand.

The baptismal ceremony opens with the question "Has this child been already baptized or no?" The administration of the sacraments specified a child must be baptized only ONCE with water.

As for Sunday see snippet

** - did not apply to godparents!

[LizzieL]

I'm not familiar with the Catholic ceremony but the administration of the sacraments of the CoE required the officiating minister to meet parents/godparents beforehand.

I wonder how many ministers really do.