Author Topic: Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???  (Read 411 times)

Offline DamonC

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Re: Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 16 October 25 22:53 BST (UK) »
Have you looked through the Eastwood Kirk Sessions in case there is mention of the family? They may have received parish relief.

I have had a look and theres one entry about a Crawford but its a woman named Mary getting pregnant out of wedlock and asking forgivness. But theres no known Marys in my family tree so not really clear it means anything.
Dont know what there Kirk sessions normally dealt with but seems quite a bit of Prenuptual Fornication going on .

Offline Neale1961

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Re: Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 16 October 25 23:21 BST (UK) »
Information in the kirk sessions varies a bit between parishes. Yes "fornication" was recorded, and often other "questionable activities". The session often contain other records which can be useful.
Full information here -
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/help-and-support/guides/kirk-session-records

I see the accounts for Eastwood are only available for 1 year, which is a shame. The account records can be useful to know if people were receiving parish support, or had paid for a mort cloth, etc.

The communion roll books for Eastwood contain the names Crawford and Taylor, but I don't know enough about your families to know if there is any connection.
Milligan - Jardine – Glencross – Dinwoodie - Brown: (Dumfriesshire & Kirkcudbrightshire)
Clark – Faulds – Cuthbertson – Bryson – Wilson: (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire)
Neale – Cater – Kinder - Harrison: (Warwickshire & Queensland)
Roberts - Spry: (Cornwall, Middlesex & Queensland)
Munster: (Schleswig-Holstein & Queensland) and Plate: (Braunschweig, Neubruck & Queensland & New York)

Offline DamonC

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Re: Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???
« Reply #11 on: Friday 17 October 25 00:27 BST (UK) »
John and Janet (with son George) migrated in 49. So any records after that would have to be some of their family still being in the area. Knowing who their family were is kinda the problem.

Offline DamonC

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Re: Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???
« Reply #12 on: Friday 17 October 25 12:38 BST (UK) »
Information in the kirk sessions varies a bit between parishes. Yes "fornication" was recorded, and often other "questionable activities". The session often contain other records which can be useful.
Full information here -
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/help-and-support/guides/kirk-session-records

I see the accounts for Eastwood are only available for 1 year, which is a shame. The account records can be useful to know if people were receiving parish support, or had paid for a mort cloth, etc.

The communion roll books for Eastwood contain the names Crawford and Taylor, but I don't know enough about your families to know if there is any connection.

Also too, i dont have really any indication that they belonged to the Parish church at all either. The only thing i know for sure is the marriage in '38 by the Burgher Church minister Finlay Stewart. I think the association with the area was a bit longer term than that due to their Australian farm being called Pollok Farm.


Offline Neale1961

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Re: Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 18 October 25 01:47 BST (UK) »
The marriage banns were posted in Eastwood, and states "both in this parish". So at least one of them (bride OR groom, if not both) was from Eastwood.
Milligan - Jardine – Glencross – Dinwoodie - Brown: (Dumfriesshire & Kirkcudbrightshire)
Clark – Faulds – Cuthbertson – Bryson – Wilson: (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire)
Neale – Cater – Kinder - Harrison: (Warwickshire & Queensland)
Roberts - Spry: (Cornwall, Middlesex & Queensland)
Munster: (Schleswig-Holstein & Queensland) and Plate: (Braunschweig, Neubruck & Queensland & New York)

Online Forfarian

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Re: Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 18 October 25 10:14 BST (UK) »
The marriage banns were posted in Eastwood, and states "both in this parish". So at least one of them (bride OR groom, if not both) was from Eastwood

If it says, "both in this parish" it means that both were resident/domiciled in the parish at the time when the banns were proclaimed. It doesn't mean that either was born in Eastwood.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline DamonC

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Re: Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 18 October 25 21:21 BST (UK) »
The marriage banns were posted in Eastwood, and states "both in this parish". So at least one of them (bride OR groom, if not both) was from Eastwood.

In that context i had interpreted the phrase to be more of a geographical reference rather than their congregation. But that could be a wrong interpretation on my behalf?
The private certificate I included above has Finlay Stewart as the minister that married them, so thats behind my thoughts that they were a part of the Burgher Church. The other names there are interesting...Robert and Arhibald MacIntyre (session clk) appear repeatedly in the Eastwood Kirk Sessions around that time period.. as Elders i think. So my interpretation is that this marriage record appears in the COS listings because the COS there acted as more than just a religious institution and fulfilled other funtions. There marriage being registered in the Eastwood church could be apart of those functions rather than their religious affiliation.

The Scotlands people listings for marriages has nothing for any of the Pollokshaw Non-COS congregations. But, i dont know if thats a symptom of the church functions or the lack of surviving records.
I dont know if its because of incomplete records or a symptom of the different roles. Its also interesting that there are virtually no "other" documents for any Non COS congregations (only 2) so it seems to me like its a function thing rather than JUST lost records.

Online RJ_Paton

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Re: Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 18 October 25 21:43 BST (UK) »
Before Civil registration began the Church of Scotland Ministers were, in theory, charged with keeping records of all Births and marriages in their area regardless of affinity to any particular church.

Unfortunately although some did this many did not, plus there was an onus on the individuals providing the information to the C of S clerks - some didn't as there was sometimes ill feeling between the congregations.

In addition to this the Burgher's went through a number of transitions as the congregations split and joined up with others until some remained with the Free Church and others rejoined the C of S - all records remained with the particular congregations who were their owners.

Another factor is the fire which destroyed the original church known as the "Kiln Kirk" - the "new" building opened in 1846 and was sadly demolished (due to vandalism) in 1976.

Offline DamonC

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Re: Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???
« Reply #17 on: Wednesday 29 October 25 13:30 GMT (UK) »
Before Civil registration began the Church of Scotland Ministers were, in theory, charged with keeping records of all Births and marriages in their area regardless of affinity to any particular church.

Unfortunately although some did this many did not, plus there was an onus on the individuals providing the information to the C of S clerks - some didn't as there was sometimes ill feeling between the congregations.

In addition to this the Burgher's went through a number of transitions as the congregations split and joined up with others until some remained with the Free Church and others rejoined the C of S - all records remained with the particular congregations who were their owners.

Another factor is the fire which destroyed the original church known as the "Kiln Kirk" - the "new" building opened in 1846 and was sadly demolished (due to vandalism) in 1976.

They went throught some transitions alright. I went to the NRS in Edinburgh and the Glasgow City Archives and looked the listed collections plus found one more that was quite relevant. ch3/1632 For Pollokshaws United Original Sucesssion 42-47. That had managers minutes, some financial records but unfortunately no baptismal register.

I started getting confused about the different congregations so made the attached doc to make sense of it. there are a few more contemporary sources that seems to mix up locations and congregations too. Hopefully ive made sense of that .

They were called Associate Presbytry (Burgher) then in 1799 most of the congregation split and became an Original Burgher congregation (old light) and kept the original church. Where the fennels graveyard is now. The minority of the congregation (new light) went to make a new church on Pollokshaws rd. Its this new chuch that burnt down in 1847 so in my case doesnt affect the records.

The Original Burghers kept the original location and based off dates on birth records held the original birth records (ch3/1636) too (the new light church baptisms ch3/1171 start in 1806 when they got their own church).

In 1841 the Original Burgher minister Finlay Stewart ( the guy who married my ancestor.. and the reason why i started trying to understand these churches and the records kept) died. There was an argument about the new minister. So, some split off to make their own church near Cogan Street (the only one still standing) Pollokshaws United Original Sucession. The records to this as i mention are just minutes etc and not baptism unfortunately. They did in the 1950s become part of COS and then merged with Auldfields Parish church to become Pollokshaws Parish. Theres no SP records for them or any baptisms listed on NRS but i am trying to figure out if the baptism records im after somehow got folded into an as yet unlisted COS record.

The original congregation got fed up with their organisation so in 1848 joined the free church. they moved to a new location in 1870. The old church became a community hall that eventually also burnt down in 1883. Even though they moved they seemed to retain the original records from the mid 18th century.