Burgher Church, Pollokshaws ca 1817-1849 ???

[DamonC]

Ive hit a brickwall with certain ancestors that i am trying to investigate. John Crawford b. 1817? and Janet Taylor b.1819?
The only thing we have for sure from Scotland (they migrated to Australia in 1849) is an 1838 marriage certificate- see attatched. Its a personal possession and matches the more more basic one available on SP etc.

The names attatched Robert MacIntyre, Pro Arch MacIntyre sess clk. Its marked Pollokshaws June 1838. The 2 people there seem to be involved with the Eastwood COS but also have a role as parish clerk.
The last line says "The above mentioned xxxxx were married by me - Finlay Stewart, Min. ".

When i investigate this name it seems that he is very much associated with the Burgher Church. So i have inferred therefore that they were married and associated with the Burgher Church in 1838.

The issue that i have is not finding birth records for their son George in 1843, definitive census records for 1841 (51 they were in Australia) as well as birth records for John Crawford in ca 1817.

My investigations of the Burgher church at that time shows it was a fairly turbulent time with splits in the church, then after F. Stewart died no minister for a bit and then the church burnt down potentially. So, It would seem that maybe the reason i cant find certain records is that they simply do not exist anymore.

Ive found reference to a Scottish record set CH3 1171 that contains some records for Pollokshaws Burgher. I thought therefore that this could be a place for me to search for some information. However, i just saw this referenced in Scotlands people so probably now i think that whatever has survived is already in Scotlands People databases. I am going to Glasgow likely next week (ive never been before) just wondering if theres any point trying to dig out this from the archives and have a look?

Thoughts on trying that? or any other resources or groups that might be more knowledgeable about Pollockshaw church records and have an idea of what was retained and what is missing?
Obviously id like to find the people im looking for but it would also be interesting in a way to know if the records were intact but actually my people werent there.

[maddys52]

Can't help with the Burgher Church. There is this mention in 1806:

"On the 27th ult. the Associate Congregation in Pollockshaws, unanimously made a choice of Mr. Finlay Stewart, preacher, to be their minister."
Wednesday,  Apr. 9, 1806
Publication: Aberdeen Journal

[Neale1961]

Marriage banns, Eastwood 1838
Gives John Crawford's occupation as a warper in the cotton works.

Immigration shipping list gives his occupation as shepherd

Have you looked through the Eastwood Kirk Sessions in case there is mention of the family? They may have received parish relief.

[Neale1961]

The parish of Eastwood (and the town of Pollokshaws) was southwest of Glasgow and was originally in Renfrewshire.  Pollokshaws eventually became a burgh of Barony.
When searching with modern search methods, remember to include both Lanarkshire and Renfrewshire.

Also consider that George may not have been the first born child. Since they married in 1838, one might expect at least 1 child born before 1843. There may have been infant deaths.


A few possible 1841 census entries to consider, and research further.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14ee89f4040b9d6ef60ec8/john-crawford-1841-lanarkshire-barony-1821-?locale=en

https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14f3a3f4040b9d6efbcb39/john-craufurd-1841-lanarkshire-gorbals-1816-?locale=en

https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/67ffd968b18f7c2fafd567b2/john-crawford-1841-renfrewshire-lochwinnoch-1821-?locale=en

[DamonC]

Marriage banns, Eastwood 1838
Gives John Crawford's occupation as a warper in the cotton works.

Immigration shipping list gives his occupation as shepherd

Have you looked through the Eastwood Kirk Sessions in case there is mention of the family? They may have received parish relief.

Yes, seen the marriage banns and the shipping list. I suspect the cotton work was correct and the shepherd was more just to get a visa. Although he did end up working as a farmer in Australia.

Ive had a bit of a look but need to dig there a bit more.

[DamonC]

The parish of Eastwood (and the town of Pollokshaws) was southwest of Glasgow and was originally in Renfrewshire.  Pollokshaws eventually became a burgh of Barony.
When searching with modern search methods, remember to include both Lanarkshire and Renfrewshire.

Also consider that George may not have been the first born child. Since they married in 1838, one might expect at least 1 child born before 1843. There may have been infant deaths.


A few possible 1841 census entries to consider, and research further.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14ee89f4040b9d6ef60ec8/john-crawford-1841-lanarkshire-barony-1821-?locale=en

https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14f3a3f4040b9d6efbcb39/john-craufurd-1841-lanarkshire-gorbals-1816-?locale=en

https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/67ffd968b18f7c2fafd567b2/john-crawford-1841-renfrewshire-lochwinnoch-1821-?locale=en

thanks. the 1st and 3rd id seen but not the second. likely because of the spelling it hadnt shown up in my search previously. thats interesting for sure. theres another candidate that i have that also has 2 young infants in the 41 census that presumably passed away at some point. Id tend to think 2 kids passing away would be a solid motivation to move somewhere else.

[DamonC]

Can't help with the Burgher Church. There is this mention in 1806:

"On the 27th ult. the Associate Congregation in Pollockshaws, unanimously made a choice of Mr. Finlay Stewart, preacher, to be their minister."
Wednesday,  Apr. 9, 1806
Publication: Aberdeen Journal

Yes he was minister until his death in 1841 according to "Annals of the original secession church"
There was seemingly a delay in appointing a minister until some time in 42. Then there was some disagreement (about the new minister ?) and the congregation split into 2. One then referred to as East Free the other as Pollokshaws United Presbyterian. Theres 2 seperate filters for these 2 congregations in Scotlands people so there is some records for these congregations. I just dont know if theyre complete. For some reason sorting by date doesnt seem to work in the Other Churches section. So i am trying to plot out what date ranges are covered in births for both.

Beyond the marriage certificate though i have no idea what congregation they mightve ended up in. the 1843 birth of their son George is what i had hoped to find but have been unable to. I know they had more than a passing connection to the area as they called their farm in Australia "Pollok farm". But between 1838 marriage and 1849 migration from London i dont really have any proof of where they were or what they were up to. But George had claimed to be born in Glasgow and Johns description of his work mentioned Glasgow as well so i dont think they were anywhere else (just cant prove it).

[Forfarian]

Related thread https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=208843.0

[DamonC]

as i posted in the other thread that was just linked.
Pollokshaw Burgher split into 2 congregations (either 42 or 48 depending how you interpret the text linked in other thread). One became East Free the other Pollokshaws United Presbyterian . Juding by the number of birth records shown by using the filters on these in Scotlands People then East Free retained far more information.

As part of finding this and looking at the list of records available in NRS i saw 2 collections containing something from these 2 churches.
Ch3/1171- Pollokshaws Associate, Pollokshaws Burgher, Pollokshaws United Presbyterian
AND
Pollokshaws - East Free (CH3/1636) RENFREW

The entry on NRS for the first one just mentions a brief description of the church history. no details about whats in the collection.  When i filter on birth records from this "Pollokshaw Associate" then there are just 312 births https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/browseDetails.aspx?reference=CH3/1171&st=

For the NRS entry on the EAST FREE Collection. https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/browseDetails.aspx?reference=CH3/1636&st=
It says -
This collection has been arranged in the following way -
1. Kirk Session Minutes - no records listed
2. Board Minutes - no records listed
3. Financial Records - no records listed
4. Communion Rolls - no records listed
5. Baptismal Registers
6. Marriage Proclamation Registers - no records listed
7. Marriage Registers - no records listed
8. Commemorative Records - no records listed
9. Organisation Records - no records listed
10. Photographs - no records listed
11. Other sections

But i am not sure if "no records listed" means they have nothing like that in the collection or not..
In addition, Theres a seperate sublisting for CH3/1636/5/1. It says that access to this is closed as its not fit for production. but theres digital copies viewable.

So, whilst ive found out more, I am none the wiser on if its worth trying to go visit these in person to see if theres any more information than whats available already via Scotlands people. Are there anything but birth records in these collections? What makes it complicated is that the one i link to first is apparently in the Glasgow City Archives - Mitchell Library. Whereas the second one is in Edinburgh. I definitely dont have time for both unfortunately.
TBH if theres no real prospect of finding anything extra id rather spend my day of free time next week looking around Glasgow or Edinburgh instead!