Was Frederick Sr the father?

[mrs.tenacious]

I'm very much a novice regarding understanding of DNA, so apologies for the naivety in this long post -
My g-grandfather on my maternal side was Frederick Hales b. 24 Nov 1868 Pimlico, Middx (sometimes down as Chelsea). I have never been able to find his birth registration, or a baptism record.

On census and school admission register records his parents show as:

Frederick Hales (Sr) b. 1843 Navenby, Lincs (His father was William Hales b. 1803 Navenby).

Harriett Sarah Hudson b. 1846 Pimlico

Frederick Sr. is shown on the 1861 (age 18) census at the family home in Navenby - Occ: Apprentice Joiner/Carpenter (he continued in this trade throughout his life).
I cannot find him, Harriett or Frederick Jr. anywhere on the 1871 census.
Frederick Sr and Harriett had two further children, one in 1878 and the other in 1889.

Frederick Sr and Harriett did not marry until 1904, and she died in 1908.

I wondered if Frederick Sr wasn't the biological father of Frederick Jr. Birth searches for a boy born 1868 Pimlico with names of either Hudson or Hales have been unsuccessful (including workhouse searches for Harriett as a possibility).

I have DNA matches for four of Frederick Sr's siblings with common ancestor being their father William Hales b. 1803. 

Does this mean that Frederick Sr would definitely be Frederick Jr's biological father?

Any advice would be so welcome, as this has been a brickwall for many years.

Mrs. T.

[alan o]

So if I understand this right you cannot find the parents nor Fred Jr on the 1871 census.

Not unheard of.  Surname may be misspelled.

Not sure why that brings his parentage into doubt?

[alan o]

I take it you have ruled this birth registration out?

[mrs.tenacious]

No, I cannot find them on the 1871 census at all so far - I'm sure it's down to misspelling or mistranscribing. 

The birth reg for Islington is interesting as it's not too far from Pimlico - thank you, I'll check it out.
On all records found so far he never had the second name William, but that doesn't mean it's not him, and could be named after his grandfather.

The parentage question comes from desperation I think! Not being able to find Frederick Sr from 1861, all three of them in 1871 and the fact he and Sarah didn't marry until 1904 got me looking at all possibilities.

The DNA thing is quite baffling to me, I need to get really stuck into it properly. But if I have DNA matches with four of Frederick Sr's sibling then I must be related to him and the Hales of Navenby!
I've been searching for Frederick Jr's birth for about 15 years and was beginning to doubt my own sanity.

Thanks for your replies, much appreciated.

[Biggles50]

If you share DNA with them you are related.

Just how closely is very much dependant upon how much DNA is shared, not just with you but between each of them.

The lower the shared DNA the more distant it is until you find the MRCA to each of them.

Often one has a DNA Match but there is no “paperwork” to back it up, but DNA above 20cM can be regarded as reliable, then the reliability goes down until 10cM and below when it becomes questionable and a documented trail is really needed to support the link.

DNA also can show a match but if the person was the subject of an undocumented Adoption then that can cloud the matter.

In your case it would help us if you could list the cM shared with each of the four.

[Petros]

I take it you have ruled this birth registration out?

HALES, FREDERICK  WILLIAM     ROBINSON 
GRO Reference: 1868  D Quarter in ISLINGTON  Volume 01B  Page 352
parents appear to be William HALES and CAtherine ROBINSON m Q3 1866     St. Luke    1b   1096   

[Petros]

How about this birth? Clearly to an unmarried mother

HUDSON, FREDERICK       - 
GRO Reference: 1868  D Quarter in KENSINGTON  Volume 01A  Page 166

[mrs.tenacious]

How about this birth? Clearly to an unmarried mother

HUDSON, FREDERICK       - 
GRO Reference: 1868  D Quarter in KENSINGTON  Volume 01A  Page 166

BY GEORGE, PETROS - THAT'S HIM!

I'd searched previously under HUDSON as well as HALES, but I hadn't found this before.

I ordered the digital image and it confirms the correct birth date, and mother Harriett Hudson, no father name. 

You are a STAR - around 15 years I've been looking for this (doing a merry dance )....

THANK YOU so much!

[mrs.tenacious]

If you share DNA with them you are related.

Just how closely is very much dependant upon how much DNA is shared, not just with you but between each of them.

The lower the shared DNA the more distant it is until you find the MRCA to each of them.

Often one has a DNA Match but there is no “paperwork” to back it up, but DNA above 20cM can be regarded as reliable, then the reliability goes down until 10cM and below when it becomes questionable and a documented trail is really needed to support the link.

DNA also can show a match but if the person was the subject of an undocumented Adoption then that can cloud the matter.

In your case it would help us if you could list the cM shared with each of the four.

Thank you - I know it sounds like such a ridiculous question, but I've been going round in circles with all of this and I just wanted confirmation that Frederick Sr must have been his biological father.

Petros has found the birth reg for Frederick Jr (fanfare of trumpets), the DOB matches, and the mother is Harriett Hudson, no father named, but it must have been Frederick Sr if I have those DNA matches.  Here are the cM's....

His sister No. 1:  22cM/2seg
Sister No. 2:       9cM/1seg
Brother No.1:      9cM/1seg
Brother No. 2:     17cM/1seg

In addition, I have a 360cM match with my first cousin.

And I know I need to research this DNA thing properly, so apologies.

EDITED:  As I mentioned in my first post, Frederick Sr and Harriett Hudson had two children who were born in Wandsworth, but long after Frederick Jr's birth in 1868 to Harriett. Arthur was born in 1878 and Ada in 1888, so there's ten years between the siblings. Is it possible that Frederick Sr wasn't the biological father, that he met Harriett sometime after, and they had Arthur and Ada together, thereby making them Frederick Jr's half-siblings.... and is it possible that the DNA matches I have from Frederick Sr's siblings are linked to the half-siblings of Frederick Jr? The only DNA match I have with Frederick Sr is with my first cousin.  The only thing making me think Frederick Sr was the father (unnamed on the birth cert) is that Harriett registered him as FREDERICK Hudson,