Uniform help please

[BarbW]

is this a WW1 uniform as I thought or could it be later?

It's an early WW1 uniform.

Thank you Shaun

[ALAMO2008]

I remember working on this one before as his Death comes to mind when I pass RAF Tilstock
 as my Granddad was at the POW Camp across the Road at Prees Heath Whitchurch
Thomas John Williams was born 22 February 1898 in Llanllechid near Bethesda
That said - he would not have been 18 until February 1916 after Conscription had come in.
He would have been allocated to any Regt in the British Army and highly unlikely in my experience for him to have been able to chose a Welsh Regt to Enlist into just because he was born in Wales.
He probably went Overseas 1917 and been awarded Two Medals Mutt and Jeff at least.
But the Family don't have them in their possession to confirm his Regt and Number
This Photo posted - I don't disagree with as pre 1918
But that doesn't mean it becomes him - Many Families were given Photos of their Relatives that were serving but didn't note the rear of the Photo as to who the Soldier was and when those Relatives who did recognise the Soldier had Passed away -the Soldier became unknown and liable to guesses.
There are loads of Medal Cards for Name Thomas John Williams but they were Discharged on Silver War Badge and Disability Pension
We know Thomas was Demobbed from the Army pre 1920 so his Records would have been sent to the Army Repository Storeroom in Arnside Street as an Ex Soldier and they were held Safely for 20 years till they were Blitzed in September 1940 and a Review of the Ancestry Records of the Survived Burnt Records confirms his aren't there.

[BarbW]

I remember working on this one before as his Death comes to mind when I pass RAF Tilstock
 as my Granddad was at the POW Camp across the Road at Prees Heath Whitchurch
Thomas John Williams was born 22 February 1898 in Llanllechid near Bethesda
That said - he would not have been 18 until February 1916 after Conscription had come in.
He would have been allocated to any Regt in the British Army and highly unlikely in my experience for him to have been able to chose a Welsh Regt to Enlist into just because he was born in Wales.
He probably went Overseas 1917 and been awarded Two Medals Mutt and Jeff at least.
But the Family don't have them in their possession to confirm his Regt and Number
This Photo posted - I don't disagree with as pre 1918
But that doesn't mean it becomes him - Many Families were given Photos of their Relatives that were serving but didn't note the rear of the Photo as to who the Soldier was and when those Relatives who did recognise the Soldier had Passed away -the Soldier became unknown and liable to guesses.
There are loads of Medal Cards for Name Thomas John Williams but they were Discharged on Silver War Badge and Disability Pension
We know Thomas was Demobbed from the Army pre 1920 so his Records would have been sent to the Army Repository Storeroom in Arnside Street as an Ex Soldier and they were held Safely for 20 years till they were Blitzed in September 1940 and a Review of the Ancestry Records of the Survived Burnt Records confirms his aren't there.
We know on 19 June 1921 he was at Home with his Mother and Siblings as he was Studying for a Degree

Thank you for your reply but perhaps you are getting Thomas John Williams confused with another of the same very common name.  His mother died in 1918 in Penmaenmawr.  I have the death certificate and a newspaper memorial for her.

On 02 May 1921 he married my grandmother Ethel Pritchard in Liverpool Registry Office, I have the marriage certificate and by the 1921 census in June he was living with her family at Grey Rock Street in Liverpool and he was a Cotton Porter.

[ALAMO2008]

Ooops
I have amended my Last Sentence which was incorrect - Sorry

He was in the Royal Airforce Auxiliary Before WW2 per the 1939 Register

[BarbW]

Ooops
I have amended my Last Sentence which was incorrect - Sorry

He was in the Royal Airforce Auxiliary Before WW2 per the 1939 Register

Yes that is correct.

[ALAMO2008]

The 1921Census for Thomas John Williams Just Married and living with his Wife Ethel Pritchard and her Parents in Anfield Liverpool as a Cotton Porter proves he was no longer in the Forces if he did serve in WW1 - There is No proof that Thomas did serve in WW1 - although he was 18 in February 1916 and likely to be Conscripted- Not all Soldiers were passed Fit for Service and Not all Served Overseas so they were not awarded any Medals so there are no Medal Cards
If he did Pass Conscription in 1916 he would have been allocated to any UK Regt till 1919
Many Ancestry Trees have all attached the Royal Welch Fusiliers Studio Portrait of that Soldier claiming it is Thomas John
But this Soldier who was in the Royal Welch Fusiliers clearly Enlisted 1914/15  before Conscription in 1916 - so it highly unlikely to be Thomas - he could have lied about his Age and Enlisted 1914/15 to ensure he got into the Royal Welch but he would have been aged 16 then
Where did he get the Money from to pay for a Portrait Photograph in a Studio  ?
This Family Photo is obviously a Williams Relative who enlisted 1914/15 into the Royal Welch Regt
If Thomas did serve in WW1 his Records went to Arnside Street Repository in 1920 and didn't survive the Blitz in 1940 
Do you know his whereabouts 1921 to 1939  ?
You stated you had Records about him after his 1921 Marriage to Ethel
Where did you get them from ?
Have you Applied for his WW2.Records ?

[BarbW]

The 1921Census for Thomas John Williams Just Married and living with his Wife Ethel Pritchard and her Parents in Anfield Liverpool as a Cotton Porter proves he was no longer in the Forces if he did serve in WW1 - There is No proof that Thomas did serve in WW1 - although he was 18 in February 1916 and likely to be Conscripted- Not all Soldiers were passed Fit for Service and Not all Served Overseas so they were not awarded any Medals so there are no Medal Cards
If he did Pass Conscription in 1916 he would have been allocated to any UK Regt till 1919
Many Ancestry Trees have all attached the Royal Welch Fusiliers Studio Portrait of that Soldier claiming it is Thomas John
But this Soldier who was in the Royal Welch Fusiliers clearly Enlisted 1914/15  before Conscription in 1916 - so it highly unlikely to be Thomas - he could have lied about his Age and Enlisted 1914/15 to ensure he got into the Royal Welch but he would have been aged 16 then
Where did he get the Money from to pay for a Portrait Photograph in a Studio  ?
This Family Photo is obviously a Williams Relative who enlisted 1914/15 into the Royal Welch Regt
If Thomas did serve in WW1 his Records went to Arnside Street Repository in 1920 and didn't survive the Blitz in 1940 
Do you know his whereabouts 1921 to 1939  ?
You stated you had Records about him after his 1921 Marriage to Ethel
Where did you get them from ?
Have you Applied for his WW2.Records ?

I came to this forum merely looking for help in identifying a uniform.  This is definitely my grandfather.

[alan o]

There are 2 useful pointers about him that stand out from his otherwise generic uniform.  The first is the Royal Welsh Fusiliers cap badge and the second it the belt.  It is a 1914 pattern leather belt rather than the usual 1908 webbing belt.  Such was the demand for equipment that the Army decided to order a stand in webbing set made of leather as they could not manufacture or import enough of the 1908 pattern one.  As your relative is wearing the very same belt it is likely that the photo is taken in 1915 or possibly 1916.  Perhaps it is a studio photo of him in his new uniform after enlistment?

I hope that helps.

[BarbW]

There are 2 useful pointers about him that stand out from his otherwise generic uniform.  The first is the Royal Welsh Fusiliers cap badge and the second it the belt.  It is a 1914 pattern leather belt rather than the usual 1908 webbing belt.  Such was the demand for equipment that the Army decided to order a stand in webbing set made of leather as they could not manufacture or import enough of the 1908 pattern one.  As your relative is wearing the very same belt it is likely that the photo is taken in 1915 or possibly 1916.  Perhaps it is a studio photo of him in his new uniform after enlistment?

I hope that helps.

Thank you so much.  After the speculation on here yesterday about the photo I messaged my elderly auntie last night who assured me that the photograph of her dad I posted is the same as the one in a picture frame in her living room!!  Heather on Ancestry who posted out to me the 2 photos is the granddaughter of his older sister Mary, we are DNA related and are 2nd cousins.  I was also sent the photo by email in 1999 by his son, my uncle, together with a copy of his birth certificate.

Auntie Dilys said she thought her dad had joined up at 17 years of age by which time his father was deceased leaving a Widow and a much younger brother.  Perhaps he got the photo taken as a gift for his mother but that's just a fanciful idea on my part.