How were the wounded/dead dealt with?

[shanreagh]

I am assuming you have sought the files for the brothers?

You can also ask for the company/battalion diaries covering the episode.  It may have some detail of the incident.

My uncle was lost on Crete. NZ/CWGC kept open files on him, they may still be as they never found his body.  My grandmother had a series of letters right into the late 1950s after various searcher parties from NZ went to Crete. His file ended with the notation "there can be no presumption of death.  His death certificate, based I guess on the seven year concept, came through in the 1950s.   

My dad, shortly before his own death in 1993, said he felt his brother had 'stopped a bomb' ie been completely obliterated. 

My dad  was at El Alamein and said the front line was fluid, he instanced inadvertently finding themselves in German/Italian territory and having to carefully back track, and that, astonishingly for them (he was in the ASC), they later captured 6 German or Italian soldiers.

[GillianF]

I have the military records of my deceased uncle.  The son of the surviving uncle has thought about applying for his father's records but not done so yet and I am reluctant to 'tread on his toes' in this.  I have another cousin who will specifically not apply for his father's military records as his father insisted it was something in his life he preferred to forget, not discuss and should be left in the past so out of respect my cousin has honoured his father's wishes.  The generation of those who fought are renowned for not talking about their wartime experiences which is one of the reasons I never questioned the surviving uncle further when he was alive.  I also suspected the story he told his mother and the family was not the whole truth and 'sanitised' to spare them.

I have contacted the link given in the previous reply but not heard anything yet so wait patiently.

I have a book about my deceased uncle's regiment and it refers to the events of the day he died and names a Trooper who died and mentions "one other" which might be my uncle but gives no further details.  It does mention 'confusion' about the front line and other vehicles in the area thought to be allies and then identified as not so.

How, who would I contact for the Company/Battalion diaries you refer to?

Thanks for taking time to help me.



Audrey

[Viktoria]

I lost my grandfather in WW1 and he is commemorated at Thiepval.  I have the war diary for the Regiment - they lost 8 officers and 217 OR on that day - 7 October 1916 - 11th Battalion, West Yorkshire Regiment.

If you have not read it I cam recommend “ Covenant With Death “ by John Harris.
It is about a Yorkshire Regiment from their enlistment or calling up for service in W.W.1
A group of young ( so very young) men who serve together .
It climaxes at the first day of The Battle of The Somme.
The Regimental Sergeant Major who was as a father / Headmaster and the glue that held them steady in the horrendous  fighting .

The last sentences are” Two years  in the making
                                 Ten minutes in the destroying
                                  That was our history”.     
It gives a really good insight into the conditions and bravery of hitherto perfectly ordinary young men, who exceeded all that could have been expected of them.
All from a working class Yorkshire background .
Have the tissues ready.
 
Sadly it was written prior to ISBN numbers but is a classic and I hope you can find a copy .Firstpublished / printed by “ The Companion Book Club .
Oldham’s Press. London.
                      “We have made a covenant with death and with hell are  we at
agreement.Isaiah.xxviii-15.”

Viktoria.
     

[GillianF]

Thanks.  I'll have a look for it.

[Rena]

My late mother's brother was one of the Desert Rats.   Unfortunately, there are scarcely any landmarks in a desert such as a river, a row of trees, a church, etc..   Thus, unless there is a nearby wadi or oasis the shifting sands make it very hard to pinpoint an area of burials  without modern technology.  I cannot imagine any man successfully carrying an injured or dead brother such a long distance and in such a hot humid climate, especially if he had no water.

<<The number of miles a British army patrol traveled at El Alamein varied greatly depending on the specific patrol's mission, but typical patrols by units like the Long Range Desert Group (LRDG) could cover hundreds or even thousands of miles over a three-week period. While front-line infantry patrols would travel shorter distances within the 40-mile-wide defence line, LRDG reconnaissance and sabotage patrols operated deep behind enemy lines, covering significant ground. .
 
Factors influencing patrol distance:

Unit Type:-
Long Range Desert Group (LRDG): These specialized units performed deep reconnaissance and raids, with patrols often covering around 2,000 miles over three-week deployments.
Front-line Infantry: Standard infantry patrols focused on the immediate front lines, which were a bottleneck 40 miles wide, so they would travel much shorter distances.
Mission Objective:
Reconnaissance: To scout enemy positions and movements, potentially leading to longer travel distances.
Sabotage/Raids: To disrupt enemy supply lines or attack outposts, again requiring extensive travel.

Duration of Patrol: A patrol's length in terms of days or weeks would directly impact the total mileage covered.

Terrain and Enemy Activity: The environment and the presence of enemy forces would influence the route and speed of travel.

Example LRDG Patrols:
One LRDG unit, on its first operation, covered 4,000 miles over several weeks, a significant feat for its time.
On average, an LRDG patrol lasted three weeks and covered approximately 2,000 miles.
El-Alamein | Egypt, Map, Location, World War II, & Significance
El-Alamein, coastal town in northwestern Egypt, about 60 miles (100 km) west of Alexandria, that was the site of two major battles...>>

[shanreagh]

.....
I have a book about my deceased uncle's regiment and it refers to the events of the day he died and names a Trooper who died and mentions "one other" which might be my uncle but gives no further details.  It does mention 'confusion' about the front line and other vehicles in the area thought to be allies and then identified as not so.

How, who would I contact for the Company/Battalion diaries you refer to?

Thanks for taking time to help me.



Audrey

I am not sure where you are but here in NZ I wrote to the Ministry of Defence and was sent access to/material from  the battalion etc diaries. 
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205207196
https://nzhistory.govt.nz/war/the-north-african-campaign/el-alamein
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_El_Alamein
https://teara.govt.nz/en/video/34568/el-alamein

https://nzhistory.govt.nz/page/further-information-86

If you go to the Books section of this website immediately above there are several books written by the NZ War History branch, these had red and cream dust covers with a photograph on the front.  These summarised the actions, I am supposing, from the various company etc diaries

[GillianF]

Rena:  I agree and understand all you say about burials, carrying a wounded man etc. and was pretty much as I had worked out for myself but just felt the need to ask a question and satisfy myself there was no more to be done.  I strongly suspect the surviving brother was distressed by his brother dying right beside him and may have felt guilty for surviving.  I know they were more than brothers and 'mates' as well.

Shanreagh:  I'm in France but the family I all English.  I have found a book dealing with my uncle's regiment and have extracts from it but not found war diaries yet.  I may well have a look as one last attempt to satisfy my curiosity.

It would seem, on balance, that there is little chance of my uncle's remains being found and re-buried and I must close the door on that. Such is war, such is life!  May he rest in peace wherever he lie ....................

Audrey

[Andy J2022]

Audrey, 

War diaries were maintained at unit level, that is to say battalion headquarters. Infantry companies did not maintain war dairies. If you know your uncle's unit (which I assume you do since you have the CWGC information) use it to search here: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14382

Be prepared to try a couple of variations of the unit name. For instance, say their unit was the 6th Queen's Royal Regiment (West Surrey), just type "Queen's Royal Regiment (West Surrey)" in the key word box. The result in this example comes up as 1/6th Queen's Royal Regiment (West Surrey). Then select the relevant period from the results on the right hand side. You may be lucky and find that the war diaries have been digitised and if so, they will be available on Ancestry. Otherwise you would need to visit TNA or ask someone to look at/copy the relevant part of the diary on your behalf. As a guide, during operations a single page in the diary may just cover 24-48 hours, while at other times a page may cover a whole week or more. Some are typed, while others are handwritten. Be prepared for some jargon and abbreviations.

[MollyC]

Reply #11:  " ... Covenant with death..."

There appear to be numerous editions of "Covenant with death" by John Harris, and a film and a kindle version, so probably still in print.  The earliest I can find is dated 1961, in the book collection of the York and Lancaster regimental archive.

Search Results (rotherham.gov.uk)

see also https://historicalnovelsociety.org/reviews/covenant-with-death/