When do you have enough information?

[dobfarm]

(From Google Search)



Irish census substitutes are surviving records from local, often 18th and 19th-century, surveys that list individuals or households, providing valuable information similar to a census to help researchers fill gaps left by lost national census records.
Key Examples of Irish Census Substitutes
•   Griffith's Valuation (Primary Valuation of Ireland): A comprehensive, nationwide survey from 1847-1864 valuing property for poor law taxation, covering nearly every property in Ireland.
•   Tithe Applotment Books: A survey between 1823 and 1838 to assess tithes on agricultural land, listing landholders responsible for the tax.
•   1766 Religious Census: Lists Protestant households in various areas, providing religious data for the time.
•   Flax Growers' Lists (1796): Lists farmers who grew flax for the linen industry.
•   Hearth Money Rolls (1663): An early record of households, based on the tax for having a hearth.
•   Localised Surveys and Fragments: These include early census fragments, electoral registers, and Landed Estate Court Rentals from the mid-19th century.
Where to find them
•   National Archives of Ireland:
Holds records such as the Tithe Applotment Books and fragments of earlier censuses.
•   Public Record Office of Northern Ireland (PRONI):
Includes records like the 1918 Absent Voters List.
•   Findmypast:
Offers online access to various records, including Landed Estate Court Rentals and fragments of the 1749 Census of Elphin.
•   FamilySearch:
Provides resources and guides on using these substitutes for genealogical research.
•   Roots Ireland:
A dedicated resource for Irish genealogy, including sections on census substitutes by

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(Sometimes old fashioned summary of comparing records with commonsense is the best record)

Wow, thank you. That's a lot to look at. I have some Griffiths valuations in the sources for some people in the tree. I have the relevant censuses in England from 1861, but no Irish equivalents before that. My family lived at 47 Baggot Street in Dublin for many years so they shouldn't be hard to find in the records. Number 47 is even on the family headstone.

It will keep you busy a while.

[Sinann]

I was wondering who the Henry Molony that appears in the land records with Julia was and if he would lead to her death.
Hannah Maria Taylor is one of his executors and informant on his death cert, with the same address.
278 https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1888/06169/4763395.pdf
right hand page
https://willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014902/005014902_00276.pdf

Still no joy with Julia.

[Jillity]

I was wondering who the Henry Molony that appears in the land records with Julia was and if he would lead to her death.
Hannah Maria Taylor is one of his executors and informant on his death cert, with the same address.
278 https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1888/06169/4763395.pdf
right hand page
https://willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014902/005014902_00276.pdf

Still no joy with Julia.

Henry Molony was Julia's sister's husband. He had his finger in every pie. Show him a bit of land or money and he was there. We all have a relative like that. I have Julia's death as 1887. I think I got it from a family tree and failed to record the source.

[Sinann]

I was wondering who the Henry Molony that appears in the land records with Julia was and if he would lead to her death.
Hannah Maria Taylor is one of his executors and informant on his death cert, with the same address.
278 https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1888/06169/4763395.pdf
right hand page
https://willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014902/005014902_00276.pdf

Still no joy with Julia.

Henry Molony was Julia's sister's husband. He had his finger in every pie. Show him a bit of land or money and he was there. We all have a relative like that. I have Julia's death as 1887. I think I got it from a family tree and failed to record the source.

I’m fairly sure that’s not her, think two Julia Knox are mixed up, see post #17 about Julia Barlow nee Knox, her date of death 21 Dec 1887 is on a FamilySearch tree as the date Julia Williams died with source as the Will Calendars.

[Jillity]

Julia had a niece called Julia. Her niece married James Barlow and when he died she married his cousin who was also called James Barlow. I did wonder if it was her death in 1887. Julia died after 1876. Her name is in one of the land transactions along with that of John Andrew Williams who is the recipient of life estates and interests.

[Sinann]

Could Julia have gone over to John Andrew in England and died there?
Would be a great find if he was informant on her death certificate as son.

[Jillity]

I've checked the GRO indexes but didn't find anything. The only real information I have is that she died after 1876. I may look at the indexes again, but in 1876 John had a lot on his plate. His first wife died and her sister went to live with him and to look after his little daughter. It could be that his mother went to England to help out. She isn't on the 1881 census for England. John ended up marrying the sister and they were my grandfather's parents.

[dobfarm]

The Julia nee Knox who died 21 Dec 1887 appears to be Julia Barlow (Family Search tree Williams tree)
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1887/06198/4772423.pdf

https://willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014902/005014902_00023.pdf

I think she married James Barlow in 1856 in Dublin
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1856/09509/5446418.pdf
The cert doesn’t indicate she was ever married to Williams

There is a second marriage of Julia Barlow nee Knox widow to William James Barlow 1859, possibly the same woman.

https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1859/09577/5472514.pdf
But again nothing to indicate she was ever Williams.

As you said there are land records from the 1870s giving Julia Williams nee Knox, living in Limerick, no mention of Barlow. Than she seems to disappear.

As far as I'm aware ? Julia Knox (Later Williams) was born 1811 and would have been aged 76 in 1887 

 The Julia Barlow nee Knox death 21 st Dec 1887 was aged 52 was born 1835

So the 21st Dec 1887 Julia Knox (Barlow) was not Julia Williams nee knox born 1811 widow of Campbell Williams who died 1848

[Jillity]

No, that was Julia's niece, her brother's daughter. She was called Julia Knox and then she married the Barlows. I haven't got the birth and death dates for her. I don't have anything to verify Julia Wiliams' date of death, only the legal document that says,
'Henry Molony and his assigns during his life and after his decease in case the said Julia Williams should survive him should pay the said rents issues and profits subject as aforesaid unto such person or persons for such intents and purposes as the said Julia Williams should from time to time appoint as therein mentioned , and reciting that that the said Henry Molony and Julia Williams were desirous of relinquishing to the said John Andrew Williams their respective life estates and interests in the said messuage and hereditamed thereinafter described.'
The document was signed in March 1876, so Julia's death was after that.