When do you have enough information?

[dobfarm]

I have a lot of information about my great grandfather. I have his father's name, where he was born, who his sisters were. I know who he married and the names of his children. I have his marriage certificates and his death certificate. The one thing I've never found is any kind of record of his birth or baptism, and therefore I have never found anything that tells me his mother's name. I know his father was called William Campbell Williams or sometimes he was called Campbell William Williams. I know he was married to Julia Williams nee Knox There are several land transaction documents online that name the members of the family including my great grandfather. Not one of them specifically says Julia was his mother although she did leave him property. His name was John Andrew, the same as Julia's brother. He called his first daughter Maria Julia. One of his sisters was called Hannah Maria. I have DNA matches to people in the Knox family. Do you think this is enough evidence to conclude that Julia was his mother or should I keep looking?
The reason this is important to me is that if Julia was his mother, then her family goes back all the way to William the Conqueror. If his mother was Bridie from round the corner, then I'm probably descended from the local washerwoman. I'm not sure if I want the royal ancestors or not. They were pretty awful.

I had the same information about my Gt Grandfather as you (my Gt Grandfather was born 1884, the exact Birth date I didn't know to begin with) and my Gt Grandfather has a full Civil Birth Certificate which gives parentage.

Also have you found the relatives that you know are your actual relatives, in a Census yet?

It is no good looking at other Trees and assuming them to be correct, some are not and some have then copied the errors of others.

I have seen a Tree this week where someone is linking my earlier family to Dorset without the slightest scrap of evidence!

They have assumed that my 4 x Gt Grandfather was 20 years old when he married in 1815 and looked at the rounding down on the 1841 Census. Had they applied and got his Marriage Licence and Bond they would see that his age was 28, but the writing is so faint in the Register the 8 (in 28) looks like 20, but now I know it should be 28 years from the Licence, I can see in the Register it should read 28 years.

The 1841 Census does not agree with Dorset either. He was born in the same County, which should mean Yorkshire.

You need to get the paperwork and work back methodically step by step, using the Census (unless you are before the Census and Civil Registration (or the Census is one of the few images that are missing).

Mark

Mark.

 Broadwinsor and West Bay harbour Dorset. Captian John Hood of Selby got to many ports.

[Jillity]

He was born in Queenstown which is now Cork, in 1840.

Queenstown is now Cobh.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6934508#map=12/51.8659/-8.3342

It will say Queenstown in the records as it wasn't called Cobh until 1922.

[BushInn1746]

Oh Ireland is more difficult.

You will need a Sign-in to Family Search, but I have been finding Irish Land Documents and other items here (including where the people have links to places in England) ...

https://www.familysearch.org/en/search/full-text/results?count=20&q.text=%22Dennis%20helsdon%22

There are a lot of links from here
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/irish-records/records/

I can't remember which link I used now, but managed to download some Civil Certificates images for free.

Mark

https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/irish-records/records/

I used Search Records (Bar at top of screen, left button)

Then try a search under ... Section 61 of the Civil Registration Act, 2004

1901 and 1911 Census.

Census fragments and substitutes for 1821-51 available

Several types of Property records mentioned in the link.

We have trouble with an Irish born relative (deceased), we have a dated document he had with his Birth Name on, when he changed employment, giving the name he was born with. His family went to the USA and he outlived them by a short period.

I had the day off school and went to his funeral, saw him most weeks helping him in the garden and it never came across my mind to ask where were you born.

I collected up the papers and showed my Mum (then alive) this official letter and she said yes, that is his Birth name.

When he got married, he used a made up name.

Mark

Added: you are before Civil Registration.

Did any family leave Wills?

The property documents mentioned in the link and the Valuation might be useful?

I wonder what they mean when they say Census substitute?

[Pheno]

He was born in Queenstown which is now Cork, in 1840.

Queenstown is now Cobh.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6934508#map=12/51.8659/-8.3342

Apologies for hijacking this thread but a quick question about this.  The earliest census info I have about my 3x great grandfather is the 1841 census in which it states he was 40 years old and born Ireland.  Similar for 1851 & 1861.  In 1871, the last before death, it says Ireland - Cork. Given the interchange between Cork/Queenstown, is his birth likely to have been actually in Cork or just County Cork?

Thanks, Pheno

[Jillity]

I have a lot of information about my great grandfather. I have his father's name, where he was born, who his sisters were. I know who he married and the names of his children. I have his marriage certificates and his death certificate. The one thing I've never found is any kind of record of his birth or baptism, and therefore I have never found anything that tells me his mother's name. I know his father was called William Campbell Williams or sometimes he was called Campbell William Williams. I know he was married to Julia Williams nee Knox There are several land transaction documents online that name the members of the family including my great grandfather. Not one of them specifically says Julia was his mother although she did leave him property. His name was John Andrew, the same as Julia's brother. He called his first daughter Maria Julia. One of his sisters was called Hannah Maria. I have DNA matches to people in the Knox family. Do you think this is enough evidence to conclude that Julia was his mother or should I keep looking?
The reason this is important to me is that if Julia was his mother, then her family goes back all the way to William the Conqueror. If his mother was Bridie from round the corner, then I'm probably descended from the local washerwoman. I'm not sure if I want the royal ancestors or not. They were pretty awful.

I had the same information about my Gt Grandfather as you (my Gt Grandfather was born 1884, the exact Birth date I didn't know to begin with) and my Gt Grandfather has a full Civil Birth Certificate which gives parentage.

Also have you found the relatives that you know are your actual relatives, in a Census yet?

It is no good looking at other Trees and assuming them to be correct, some are not and some have then copied the errors of others.

I have seen a Tree this week where someone is linking my earlier family to Dorset without the slightest scrap of evidence!

They have assumed that my 4 x Gt Grandfather was 20 years old when he married in 1815 and looked at the rounding down on the 1841 Census. Had they applied and got his Marriage Licence and Bond they would see that his age was 28, but the writing is so faint in the Register the 8 (in 28) looks like 20, but now I know it should be 28 years from the Licence, I can see in the Register it should read 28 years.

The 1841 Census does not agree with Dorset either. He was born in the same County, which should mean Yorkshire.

You need to get the paperwork and work back methodically step by step, using the Census (unless you are before the Census and Civil Registration (or the Census is one of the few images that are missing).

Mark

Mark.

 Broadwinsor and West Bay harbour Dorset. Captian John Hood of Selby got to many ports.

I have 20 records and 28 sources that detail the whole family. The one thing I don't have is a document or entry in a document that says Julia Williams was his mother. I have a lot of information, but I'm being a bit picky. Not many people have my Great Grandfather in their family trees on Ancestry, and those that do only have one or two records. Some of my family have copied the information from my tree. I know the year of his birth. He died on 25th December 1910 at the age of 70. That makes his birth date 1840 or 26th to 31st December 1841. He appears on the 1861 and subsequent censuses in England, however, that doesn't mean he lived in England in 1861. He was a boarder, and he was a marine engineer, so it could have been a temporary resident while he was in port. I have legal document that include the family names, including Julia his mother. Wikitree says it's likely that I share autosomal dna with another person who is linked to Julia, and I am likely to share dna with two people linked to her mother. I will see if I can get a copy of John Andrew's engineering certificate, but I think the legal documents and the dna, plus the fact that Julia was married to his father, and that John Andrew sold land to his sister Hannah Maria, pretty much shows that Julia was his mother.

[Jillity]

Oh Ireland is more difficult.

You will need a Sign-in to Family Search, but I have been finding Irish Land Documents and other items here (including where the people have links to places in England) ...

https://www.familysearch.org/en/search/full-text/results?count=20&q.text=%22Dennis%20helsdon%22
The land documents are brilliant. The AI transcripts are bit off sometimes, but you get so much information from them that you can't get from other records.

There are a lot of links from here
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/irish-records/records/

I can't remember which link I used now, but managed to download some Civil Certificates images for free.

Mark

https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/irish-records/records/

I used Search Records (Bar at top of screen, left button)

Then try a search under ... Section 61 of the Civil Registration Act, 2004

1901 and 1911 Census.

Census fragments and substitutes for 1821-51 available

Several types of Property records mentioned in the link.

We have trouble with an Irish born relative (deceased), we have a dated document he had with his Birth Name on, when he changed employment, giving the name he was born with. His family went to the USA and he outlived them by a short period.

I had the day off school and went to his funeral, saw him most weeks helping him in the garden and it never came across my mind to ask where were you born.

I collected up the papers and showed my Mum (then alive) this official letter and she said yes, that is his Birth name.

When he got married, he used a made up name.

Mark

Added: you are before Civil Registration.

Did any family leave Wills?

The property documents mentioned in the link and Valuation might be useful?

I wonder what they mean when they say Census substitute?

[dobfarm]

(From Google Search)



Irish census substitutes are surviving records from local, often 18th and 19th-century, surveys that list individuals or households, providing valuable information similar to a census to help researchers fill gaps left by lost national census records.
Key Examples of Irish Census Substitutes
•   Griffith's Valuation (Primary Valuation of Ireland): A comprehensive, nationwide survey from 1847-1864 valuing property for poor law taxation, covering nearly every property in Ireland.
•   Tithe Applotment Books: A survey between 1823 and 1838 to assess tithes on agricultural land, listing landholders responsible for the tax.
•   1766 Religious Census: Lists Protestant households in various areas, providing religious data for the time.
•   Flax Growers' Lists (1796): Lists farmers who grew flax for the linen industry.
•   Hearth Money Rolls (1663): An early record of households, based on the tax for having a hearth.
•   Localised Surveys and Fragments: These include early census fragments, electoral registers, and Landed Estate Court Rentals from the mid-19th century.
Where to find them
•   National Archives of Ireland:
Holds records such as the Tithe Applotment Books and fragments of earlier censuses.
•   Public Record Office of Northern Ireland (PRONI):
Includes records like the 1918 Absent Voters List.
•   Findmypast:
Offers online access to various records, including Landed Estate Court Rentals and fragments of the 1749 Census of Elphin.
•   FamilySearch:
Provides resources and guides on using these substitutes for genealogical research.
•   Roots Ireland:
A dedicated resource for Irish genealogy, including sections on census substitutes by

~~~~~~~~~~~

(Sometimes old fashioned summary of comparing records with commonsense is the best record)

[Jillity]

(From Google Search)



Irish census substitutes are surviving records from local, often 18th and 19th-century, surveys that list individuals or households, providing valuable information similar to a census to help researchers fill gaps left by lost national census records.
Key Examples of Irish Census Substitutes
•   Griffith's Valuation (Primary Valuation of Ireland): A comprehensive, nationwide survey from 1847-1864 valuing property for poor law taxation, covering nearly every property in Ireland.
•   Tithe Applotment Books: A survey between 1823 and 1838 to assess tithes on agricultural land, listing landholders responsible for the tax.
•   1766 Religious Census: Lists Protestant households in various areas, providing religious data for the time.
•   Flax Growers' Lists (1796): Lists farmers who grew flax for the linen industry.
•   Hearth Money Rolls (1663): An early record of households, based on the tax for having a hearth.
•   Localised Surveys and Fragments: These include early census fragments, electoral registers, and Landed Estate Court Rentals from the mid-19th century.
Where to find them
•   National Archives of Ireland:
Holds records such as the Tithe Applotment Books and fragments of earlier censuses.
•   Public Record Office of Northern Ireland (PRONI):
Includes records like the 1918 Absent Voters List.
•   Findmypast:
Offers online access to various records, including Landed Estate Court Rentals and fragments of the 1749 Census of Elphin.
•   FamilySearch:
Provides resources and guides on using these substitutes for genealogical research.
•   Roots Ireland:
A dedicated resource for Irish genealogy, including sections on census substitutes by

~~~~~~~~~~~

(Sometimes old fashioned summary of comparing records with commonsense is the best record)

Wow, thank you. That's a lot to look at. I have some Griffiths valuations in the sources for some people in the tree. I have the relevant censuses in England from 1861, but no Irish equivalents before that. My family lived at 47 Baggot Street in Dublin for many years so they shouldn't be hard to find in the records. Number 47 is even on the family headstone.

[Sinann]

I wonder what they mean when they say Census substitute?

Among other things.

https://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/search/cs/home.jsp

Search forms from searches of the 1841 and 1851 census to help people qualify for the old age pension as they wouldn't have had birth certs before these censuses were lost.

This link is good for NAI genealogy records
https://genealogy.nationalarchives.ie/