Author Topic: Elenor Gingles/Scott  (Read 1669 times)

Offline gaffy

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Re: Elenor Gingles/Scott
« Reply #9 on: Monday 01 September 25 21:10 BST (UK) »

Offline Elwyn Soutter

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Re: Elenor Gingles/Scott
« Reply #10 on: Monday 01 September 25 21:11 BST (UK) »
Elwyn

Offline gaffy

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Re: Elenor Gingles/Scott
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 02 September 25 01:25 BST (UK) »
Nothing has readily jumped out at me for James Gingle after he took off, perhaps he changed his name. But at least we know that he points back to the Kilwaughter / Larne folk.

On the Scott side, the surname can be challenging to research in this geographic context, but here are some possibilities to note until you can rule them in or out.  The marriage of Margaret Scott to Samuel Livingstone in 1880 was at Lisburn, so I'm guessing that Margaret's stated residence of "Cabra" was the townland just south of there (rather than the one away down near Rathfriland).  The two witnesses were Martin Rutherford and Ellen Scott, the marriage of a Martin Rutherford to an Agnes Scott (daughter of Robert a farmer) in Belfast in 1876 may indicate a possible sister to Margaret:
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1876/11154/8086119.pdf   

The same couple in 1901 and 1911 (note forenames like Ellie and Sarah Jane for the children):
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Pottinger/Castlereagh_Road/1216237/
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Pottinger__part_of_/Castlereagh_Road/220450/

In the 1901 Ireland census, there is an Ellen Scott in "Cabragh", living with her mother Ellen:
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Ballyworphy/Cabragh/1240519/

In 1905, Ellen Scott the mother died at Cabra:
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1905/05582/4568031.pdf

In 1906 in Hillsborough, Ellen Scott the daughter married a John Jamison, Ellen's father was given as Robert, a farmer:
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1906/10134/5686939.pdf

The Jamesons in 1911 at Cabragh:
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Ballyworphy/Cabragh/249629/

When Margaret Scott Livingstone married James Gingle in 1889, one of the witnesses was a Sarah J Bell.  When a Sarah Jane Scott married John Bell at Lisburn in 1874, her residence was given as Cabra and her father as Robert, a farmer, one of the witnesses was an Agnes Scott (maybe the same one who married Martin Rutherford in 1876?):
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1874/11226/8115444.pdf

So did the Margaret Scott (a.k.a. "Elenor" if the 1901 Ireland Census return for house 8 in Ardgowan Street is to be believed) who married James Gingle have sisters Agnes, Ellen and Sarah Jane? If her father was Robert a farmer, was her mother named Ellen (as per that 1901 Ireland Census return for Cabragh)? Also note the following marriage in 1846 (Ellen and Eleanor being interchangeable), it took place at Lisburn, it was for Robert Scott, a farmer, of Ballymurphy (west Belfast) to Eleanor Waterworth of Cabra:
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1846/09312/5371909.pdf

All just possibilities for now. 


Offline rosie17

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Re: Elenor Gingles/Scott
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 02 September 25 06:40 BST (UK) »
I couldn't see anything on immigration records either or in Scotland .If his wife was looking for information he most probably changed his name  ::)

Rosie


Offline KGarrad

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Re: Elenor Gingles/Scott
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 02 September 25 08:57 BST (UK) »
And another thing!  :D

Margaret Livingstone marriage to James Gingles shows:

Both parties "of full age".
James' occupation "Student".
Married by licence.

Are Presbyterian marriage icences available anywhere?

Presumably, James was a student at Queen's University?
Are any records available?
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline gaffy

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Re: Elenor Gingles/Scott
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 02 September 25 09:17 BST (UK) »

... Perhaps this family in the 1851 census:

https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1851/Antrim/Upper_Glenarm/Grange_Of_Killyglen/Killyglen/30/


Probably related, but the Killyglen Gingles aren't my first choice for parents of James.  It's difficult to tease apart the cluster of Gingles that were in that area just west of Larne, but looking solely at the information we know of - that James' marriage registration shows his father as a farmer called William and that the item his wife placed in the newspaper seeking his whereabouts named his brothers as publicans Patrick and John from Kilwaughter - I'm leaning towards the idea that his mother was called Agnes. It would take me too long to provide the full trail of logic leading to that, but of the two Patrick Gingles in the 1901 Ireland census in that area, it's the Hightown one who was more likely James' brother and not the Ballyedward one (whose father was called John according to the record of his marriage to Agnes Magill). There are also 1890s newspaper references to a Patrick Gingles of Hightown being a spirit merchant.  In 1911, this was the more likely candidate in Station Road Larne:
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Larne/Station_Road/195592/

A Patrick Gingles died in Cross Street Larne in 1917 (Cross Street being where the previously posted John Gingles was), the identity of the informant suggests that he had a sister Agnes Gingles who married Agnew Ferguson in 1875:
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1917/05217/4443396.pdf
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1875/11210/8108648.pdf

I think the Margaret Gingles shown in that census return for Station Road may have died in 1929, the death notice for that Margaret said she was the youngest daughter of William and Agnes Gingles of Hightown Kilwaughter and a sister of Andrew in New Zealand. There are also the following deaths for a William Gingles (1888) and an Agnes Gingles (1899):
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1888/06191/4770342.pdf (informant was son Patrick)
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1899/05792/4638282.pdf (informant was son John)

There's a will on the PRONI Will Calendars website for the William Gingles who died in 1888, it mentions wife Agnes and sons Patrick and Thomas:
The Will of William Gingles late of Hightown County Antrim Farmer who died 7 February 1888 at same place was proved at Belfast by Agnes Gingles Widow and Patrick Gingles Farmer both of Hightown the surviving Executor.
 
There was also a William Gingles who died in 1896 and was the brother of Matilda Gingles according to a newspaper reference, again I'm guessing he was a son of William and Agnes.

Hardly conclusive, but William and Agnes Gingles of Hightown are worth noting as a possibility for now.


Offline gaffy

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Re: Elenor Gingles/Scott
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 02 September 25 10:25 BST (UK) »

Presumably, James was a student at Queen's University?


In the absence of a civil birth registration I'm assuming that James was born pre 1864.  If you google "James Gingles" and "Queen's College" you should get back a hit showing that name under "Passed" for "Queen's College, Belfast Second University Examination in Medicine. October, 1881". There is a Belfast newspaper reference in 1881 corroborating that. A newspaper item about Queen's University in October 1878 indicates that a James Gingles passed the First University Examination in medicine.

Also, in the Belfast News-letter of July 1875, a James Gingles of Kilwaughter is listed under Belfast Academy for having achieved Latin 3rd Class.

You could contact Queen's University for their records.


Offline Elwyn Soutter

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Re: Elenor Gingles/Scott
« Reply #16 on: Tuesday 02 September 25 12:46 BST (UK) »

Are Presbyterian marriage icences available anywhere?


The licences themselves no longer exist but the North of Ireland FHS has some marriage application records (forms the couple completed at the time, which contain a little more than is on the certificate) for Presbyterian churches in Belfast. I don’t know if they have Crescent but you could ask. The records are not on-line so you would need to e-mail them. Crescent was known as Linenhall until 1887.

https://www.nifhs.org/
Elwyn