Family Lines of Robert Fischer (1841), Madurai, IN

[Ramalingam]

Thank You very much for the Collective Genius in bringing the most crucial aspects of Mr. and Mrs. Fischer. Your efforts are hugely respected and noted for the literature support for the family.

I have 5 more Mysteries around their life waiting to be unveiled kindly share your same enthusiasm with my research:

Mystery-1: Was there any conflict between Mr. Fischer and Queen?
I came across few case from Indian Records which clearly depicts the friction of relations with the Queen and Mr.Fischer and also Queen is closely related to Mr. James Samuel Drury, I would like to know the politics of those days that happened with these two. He was also seen to have multiple cases and allegations for standing with the People of Madurai against the Secretary of State.

Ref: Robert Fischer And Ors. vs The Secretary Of State For India In ... on 23 November, 1908 https://indiankanoon.org/doc/1600887/
Ref: Queen Empress vs R. Fischer on 3 March, 1891 https://indiankanoon.org/doc/881034/

Mystery-2: Was there any threats to his life and so he has to fake his own death?
Church records says he was dead just a month after his famous case with one landlord/businessman by 1908.
Still I find him in a Ship Journey with Sybil Fischer in 1929 from UK to US.
Why should this man fake his death and leave the business, assets and family ownership to his beloved wife?

Ref: Burial Records at St. Mathias, Madura, 1908 (In Tree)
Ref: US Immigration Records in Sep, 12, 1929, Ship S.S. Samaria, from Liver Pool to New York.

Mystery-3: What were his activities (Political, Financial, Social) from 1908 - 1929 (Last Active)? When and Where is his real death US / UK/ IN?
If he was in exile what were his ambitions and motivations during the tenure. I see an active American Madura Mission - Report from 1900 to 1930 for development and restructuring of Madurai City since 1834. I am sure Fischer was subtly involved in it, taking his past interests in Practicing Law into account.

Ref: American Madura Mission - Reports from 1900 to 1930 (PDFs)

Mystery-4: Is Sybel related to Isabelle somehow? Why should she take good care of Zara Maud Fischer after demised of Mrs.Fischer in 1884. If Zara was born in 1902 how she took the family Name 'Maud" ? Were there any other Children for Mr. Fischer? Why the little Zara and Sybil have to travel between US and UK time on time? Was there a Studies or Marriage Proposal going on?
If yes was that groom within Fischer or Sybel or Isabelle or Fuller Family? And this question can lead to finiding the present lineage of Zara Fischer.

Ref: All Immigration records To and From : India, UK, US I got Few References but mostly missing pieces.

Mystery-5:How and Where was his Schooling, Law Education and Was he attached to any Family Members Post WW1? If So are there any descendants connected to them?

This details are important because the Robert Fischer seems to have a completely different family tree from Sybil's and Isabelle's Tree. What was his correct Family and Professional Background.

PS: Robert Fischer made his Bachelor Barrister at Law School of St Michael, Paddington, UK. NO References I have got there.

Please feel free to connect with me for any records or new informations you have. Due to Size Limitation I cannot put all of those work in the single thread.
I am sure Mr and Mrs. Fischer deserves the recognition for their incredible life they have lived. I hae a duty to share the same with their today Family. These Information would be carefully documented in a Book with the Madurai City for our future.

Thanks,
Ramalingam KB

[Little Nell]

Mystery-2: Was there any threats to his life and so he has to fake his own death?
Church records says he was dead just a month after his famous case with one landlord/businessman by 1908.
Still I find him in a Ship Journey with Sybil Fischer in 1929 from UK to US.
Why should this man fake his death and leave the business, assets and family ownership to his beloved wife?

Ref: Burial Records at St. Mathias, Madura, 1908 (In Tree)
Ref: US Immigration Records in Sep, 12, 1929, Ship S.S. Samaria, from Liver Pool to New York.

I think you are seeing a mystery where there is none.
The couple who travelled to New York in 1929 are NOT Robert, barrister at law and his wife Sibyl.  The ages for the couple are stated to be 75 and 72, giving birth years of 1854 and 1857.  Checking back on other census, this appears to be Robert Fisher and his wife Sybil nee Hartley.  They said they had previously been living in Manningham, Bradford in Yorkshire. 

While Fischer may have been mistranscribed as Fisher on some records, it is important to consider that sometimes Fisher might be the correct name.  Sybil/Sibyl was not that uncommon a personal name in Victorian times.  I am not aware that it might be considered a replacement for Isabelle.  The two names have different origins.

Nell

[Little Nell]

Mystery-1: Was there any conflict between Mr. Fischer and Queen?
I came across few case from Indian Records which clearly depicts the friction of relations with the Queen and Mr.Fischer and also Queen is closely related to Mr. James Samuel Drury, I would like to know the politics of those days that happened with these two. He was also seen to have multiple cases and allegations for standing with the People of Madurai against the Secretary of State.

Ref: Robert Fischer And Ors. vs The Secretary Of State For India In ... on 23 November, 1908 https://indiankanoon.org/doc/1600887/
Ref: Queen Empress vs R. Fischer on 3 March, 1891 https://indiankanoon.org/doc/881034/

Robert Fischer's activities resulted in a number of civil court cases.  In the second instance that you quote, it was because he had performed a marriage ceremony in his capacity as a Lay Trustee of the church when the incumbent and registrar were both absent.  The case was brought on behalf of the state (and this is why it appears as 'Queen Empress v R Fischer').  At that time the head of state was Queen Victoria.  All cases brought by the state would have been listed at that time as 'Queen Empress' v ......

There are newspaper reports of cases involving land disputes.  There was no personal involvement of the Queen.

Regarding Maude Fuller, she was the headmistress/principal of a school for girls in Woking, situated at Maybury House.  She had no other relationship with the Fischer family.

Sybil and Zara are in England in 1921.

Nell

[Ramalingam]

Thanks Nell, Some clouds have been cleared on my theory M-1 (Planned Exile) and M-2 (Queen's Attrition). I was seeking for factual records that can give answer to the Question, Who was taking care of Mother and Daughter in the absence of Mr. Fischer hence come up with these probable theories with available records. It would be a genius idea to close these open knots of these two Mysteries.

Previously, I have had the same rare speculation that there would be a different Robert Fischer and Sybil Fischer, since church records cannot be falsified. However to support these narratives, have we got any B/M/D details of Maud Fuller, Robert Fischer (75) (New), Sybil [nee Hartley] Fischer (72)?

I have seen the Age of Sybil [Blanche Colebrooke Stewart] Fischer inconsistent in most Shipping records which do not match the Expected Birth date 1862.

Is there a possibility for Maud Fuller to be Isabelle's Sister, Mary Maud Fuller Drury (Wife of Herbert Henry Fuller)? Why would Zara carry the family Name "Maud" in some records since Isabelle Maud Fischer was First Wife and Sybil Fischer was Second Wife of Robert Fischer.

Nell, also can you get some family lineage after they (Sybil and Zara) are in England in 1921 or later.

Thanks for your information and time.

[osprey]

likely marriage
Zara M H Fisher sept qtr 1922 St Martin vol 1a pg 1350 to Frederick Berry - same name as on Sybil's probate. Zara also indexed with last name Calcutt.

From electoral registers, Frederick & Zara lived in a house called Madura in Lower Shiplake, Oxfordshire. Some entries give her as Zara Maud Howard Berry.

I think Frederick died in 1963 aged 85. Probate entry gives his address as Phyllis Court Club, Henley on Thames and he died 3 March 1963 at 7 St Andrews Rd Henley. Probate to Victor Fredrick Berry & Ernest Chetter.

Victor was the son of Frederick & Zara. Birth reg june qtr 1924 Henley mother's maiden name Calcutt-Fisher.
Victor married in 1949 and died 22 Oct 1975 and left a will. Several likely children to the marriage who I will not mention as they are likely to be still alive.

Zara isn't in the same household as Frederick on the 1939 register  I haven't spotted her after that as yet.

[MollyC]

Reply #11

Sybil and Zara are in England in 1921

You can view FindMyPast's index to the 1921 census free.
 https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-records/1921-census-of-england-and-wales

AMENDED Sybil seems to have quietly lost 10 years of her age.*
The index gives year of birth 1871 (1921 minus age in the census) and her birthplace as New Zealand.  Zara born 1901 Madras, India.

They were both in Uppingham, Rutland and spelled "Fisher".  Perhaps the 1st World War caused them to drop the German spelling.  There were incidents of British citizens with German names being attacked although their families had lived here for many years.

* I have seen this before on shipping lists where two sisters who were in show business and their mother reduced their ages on a working visit to S. Africa.  Sybil's age at death registration (75) seems about right.

[osprey]

Just searched for Zara using Calcutt last name and found a baptism in Madura
Born 17 Oct 1901, baptised 24 Nov 1901 Zara Maud Howard daughter of Henry Frederick & Caroline Calcutt, father engineer at cotton mills. So looks like she may have been adopted.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:66FT-KMDB?lang=en

brother James born 1900
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGCM-JYL?lang=en

father a widower on 1911 census.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7L7-4W4?lang=en

[Little Nell]

I am unclear why you think that there must be some relationship between Maud Fuller and Isabelle Drury.  Maud is not a ‘family’ name or surname.  It is a given name/first name that was quite common in Victorian times.  A quick and very random look at the GRO indexes on FreeBMD (https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl) has nearly 100 births registered in one quarter of 1861 where the child was named Maud.

Maud Fuller was the head mistress of a school so presumably Zara was sent there to be educated, along with a number of other girls. She was unmarried.  Her full name according to the GRO index was Frances Maud Mary Fuller.  Her parents appear to be Sidney Fuller and Kate Tranter who married in 1865.  He was employed on the railway.  Frances Maud Fuller can be found with her family in 1881, 1891 census.  By 1911 she was the principal of the school.  Frances Maud Fuller died in 1955, unmarried. (National Probate Calendar – free to search).

Robert Fisher who went to USA in 1929 was born in 1854 in Yorkshire (from GRO index).   He married Sybil Hartley in June qtr 1877 in Bradford (Vol 9b p 233 – GRO index, free to search at FreeBMD).  His wife Sybil was also born in Yorkshire.  They can be found together in 1881 in Manningham Yorkshire (matches with the place of residence given in 1929).  Later that same year, they migrated to USA and in 1890 were living in California in 1920.  They were naturalized citizens and had received US citizenship in 1885. The 1929 arrival record also gives their US residence as California and that they became US citizens in 1885. They are definitely NOT the same couple and should be ignored. Many census records can be accessed free via FamilySearch.

Sybil Fischer (widow of Robert Fischer who died in India in 1908 and was buried there) left a considerable sum of money.  She was not living in penury.  She is recorded as leaving Britain in 1909 with a child and a governess (newspaper report).  She could still afford to travel.

I did wonder if Zara might have been adopted since there was a considerable period of time between Robert & Sybil's marriage and her apparent birth date.

Nell

[Little Nell]

With regard to Robert's legal education and career:

From listings in Thackers Indian Directory in 1885 and 1886, he did his legal training at both Lincoln's Inn and Middle Temple in London.  You can find his name in the admissions registers from links on their websites:
 
Lincoln's Inn
https://www.lincolnsinn.org.uk/library-archives/researching-past-members/
(HathiTrust, Internet Archive and FamilySearch also have copes if the printed admissions registers)

Middle Temple
https://www.middletemple.org.uk/archive/archive-information-access/sources-resources/digitised-records/registers-admissions
(also available on FamilySearch)

In 1885 he was attached to chambers at 2nd Line Beach.  In 1886 he was listed at Terumal Naik's Palace, Madura  He had been called to the bar in 1872.

Robert had some dealings with the American Madura Mission when he offered some land to it for a new building.   See the report here:
https://archive.org/details/seventyfiveyears00chan/mode/2up
page 329
He also donated money to them to help build new primary schools.

I think that all your 'mysteries' have now been answered.

1 No connection between Fischer and Queen except that he was an advocate in the Madras legal department.  The state brought a case against him for illegally carrying out a marriage service.

2 He did not fake his death, he was buried in 1908 in India.

3 Since he died in 1908, there were no further activities after this date.  The pair who travelled to USA in 1929 are not relevant.

4 Robert's first wife was not related to his second wife.

5 see above summary

Nell