Am I on the right thinking here.

[Gitalonglittledoggy]

Hi Esnell, I’ve read your two threads on trying to work out the identity of your son-in-law’s (SIL)’s father’s father (is that correct?) through DNA and complementary documentary evidence (BDM records etc). I do not identify as a First Nations person, but have family links with First Nations people from various parts of eastern Australia. I have also recently used DNA to fairly conclusively identify the biological father of my maternal great grandfather (non-Indigenous).

It sounds like you have done a great job of narrowing down the relevant DNA clusters and are 99% there. There have been some excellent links shared on both threads to sources on First Nations people and communities around Moama and Echuca. Your SIL should be very proud of his First Nations heritage and links to people from Cummeragunga and surrounding areas.

A note about endogamy and people having overlapping relationships and children to different partners in First Nations communities. As many of the sources linked in these threads note, First Nations people and communities were subjected to (and continue to experience in many ways) systematic, intentional, comprehensive, often violent and coordinated efforts to deny their rights as the owners and custodians of their Country; to undermine and destroy First Nations autonomy, leadership, cultures, knowledges and families; and large-scale theft of their resources.  Institutions and processes imposed by invader colonists on First Nations people and communities have often been (and continue to be) based on racist, discriminatory and paternalistic attitudes and assumptions. These were intended to exert control over the lives of First Nations people, breaking up families and traditional kinship and community connections.
I don’t think we can talk about how First Nations people married, moved between relationships or had children in the late 1800s and early 1900s without acknowledging this context.

It is also worth considering how complex and ‘messy’ many people’s personal and family lives were in this era, regardless of cultural background . For example research on cases brought to Court in Hay (regional town in south western NSW) under the Deserted Wives and Children Act may be of interest   https://cdn.csu.edu.au/__data/assets/word_doc/0015/161511/Kristina-Wendt-Deserted-Wives-and-Children-Act.doc

In terms of research:
If your SIL would be willing to upload his DNA to GEDmatch (would have to create an account but it is free) there are a number of Ancestor Projects available that you/he could join (you can find them by clicking on the ‘Free Tools’ tab on the left hand side of the GEDmatch page once you have created an account and logged in).
-  In particular, there is a GEDmatch Aboriginal and Torres Islander Ancestor Project.
-  You have to apply to join this Project within GEDmatch, including explaining why you wish to do so and agreeing to follow the Project’s rules.
- If accepted, you can then ‘run’ a comparison of your SIL’s DNA against all the other DNA matches of people who have also joined that specific Ancestor project.
-  You can select the minimum number of cMs shared as part of this,  7 or more cMs is the default but you can set it as low as 3 cMs.
- A list of DNA matches who are also part of the Ancestor Project and share DNA with your SIL (at or above the threshold minimum cM value set) is then generated, giving each matches’ unique GEDmatch number, number of cMs shared on each chromosome, estimated number of generations from last common ancestor, as well as a contact email and the type of DNA test used. If the DNA match has created a GEDCOM family tree in GEDmatch or linked their Wikitree to their DNA this will also be listed.
- There is a private Facebook group for the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander GEDmatch Ancestor Project. You would have apply to join, but if accepted you can then post a screenshot of DNA matches generated through the Ancestor Project (making sure email addresses are removed) and your SIL’s GEDmatch number, accompanied by a brief description of the reasons for your search and surnames, region and time period of interest.
- You can also run 1 to 1 comparisons, shared common matches and clustering tools for your SIL’s DNA with matches listed through the Ancestor Project.
- There are also a number of Australian First Nations specific genealogy Facebook groups (generally private but you can apply to join) including one focusing on NSW. I’m not sure if there is a similar one for Victoria. Sometimes posting on broader community history FB pages for the region of interest can also be very helpful.
- Have you or your son-in-law tried contacting AITSIS (national organisation) or relevant First Nations organisations in the Moama and Balranald regions?

In terms of DNA analysis and connections, it looks like you have it covered! I

[David Nicoll]

Essnell,
    Great that you are still making progress, a word of warning about other people’s trees, always try and verify them yourself.
     In these tangled families it is very easy to suffer from confirmation bias. Someone states a fact and everyone copies, I have more than once come across a death certificate which comprehensively demolishes assumptions of families I have previously built!

Happy Hunting

[Essnell]

Hi David, 
Thanks for the advice about trees.  I know they can be notoriously wrong.  In this search proving things is awfully difficult because much is based on hand me down stories - cultural norms for the group. 

It's also dogged by the repetitive naming of individuals and the numerous cross family marriages and re marriages  and co-marriages - probably just partners where and whenever.  So unraveling any tree in this instance is vitally necessary.

I have a thread trying to trace the mystery man, and what happened to him.  This was to try to prove his connection to my s-i-l's match lists. To me it's highlighting this issue.

I shall keep hunting.
Essnell.

[Essnell]

Hi Gitalonglittledoggy,

Thank you for the log and useful posting.   i don't know how i missed it earlier  must have been between postings.
My apologies. 
Also I have gone back to my own gt grandmother and that mystery from England.
Needless to say I also don't identify as a First Nations Person and my early life did not help any with understanding this. I grapple with it every day.

Now  I will return later today.  I have a couple of appointments to attend in a little while. 

Essnell

[Essnell]

HI Gitalonglittledogey,

Endogamy is a term used, I have discovered, in genealogy to describe the way in which families are often tied together . Applying that to any society Genetically, to me seems the best way of describing what I have come across. 

It is proving very difficult to follow just who is related to whom, irrespective of any other criteria.
In the last few days I have discovered another instance of this within this search.
The community from whence these individuals came was quite small at the time that my Mystery person lived.
The smaller the community the more likely this is to occur. 

As we all know and understand First Nation peoples lived in small groups, usually connected to a wider group that called large areas home. The inter-relationships within this context is what I am having to unravel.  I am trying to follow and understand the way that worked within the time frame and the circumstances of the day.


Now I have a very messy family tree of my own, there are gaping holes, parts do not add up and parts do not concur with DNA.There are people having kids with others etc.ec.   so It's allover the place" like"a dogs breakfast", so to speak.  But many families are like that.

In this search I have a lot of lines that can only be sorted if one looks at them not as a continual usual pedigree line.  Getting this on paper is a daunting task .... because it's never straight forward.  Sorry it's messy.

Regarding SIL. I don't know what he thinks about it all. he hasn't made any comment to me. However he has said to get any certs that I want to and he will pay.    However my grandson   is quite chuffed  said " That's awsomre " .  It's also been bandied about by his niece. But I don't know how she has taken this either.

Re Gedmetch  I don't know. It was hard enough to even get him to take a test in the first place.  Unfortunately he never believed his father about any of his past. I think my daughter might be more interested. 

I will print off the relevant section of your thread and see what they think.   Uploading to gedmatch would have to be done by them so we shall see. 

The extra things offered in gedmatch would be really interesting. It might even help in this case.
 I have as said earlier contacted Balranald Historical Society and all that is got was to contact the Cemetery. 

It was also suggested earlier to try contacting the Gov. funded group that assisted First Nations people with native title issues and building family trees but I never received a reply. 

I shall keep going no matter what - there has to be a DNA link somewhere.
Essnell

[brigidmac]

I agree with Biggles that you arean inspiration
Also you present your case in a clear yet amusing way .

This is a good read . Yesterday i communicated  with a man who found that his birth father was his own uncle
( slept with his  sisters daughter )
Thst is the kind of endogamy that screws up cm amounts .

I have a scottish side where my grandparents met at a wedding .her cousin  married his brother.  So descendants of that couple match my dad on both sides
Also the naming system means 1st grandchildren have same names as their grandparents & 3rd son will be named same as his father 3rd girl same name as mother . So cousins often  have same names & similar birth years

My jewish ancestors at 2xggparents level came from a small latvian community
& plenty of cousin marriages occurred
The advantage being that very small cm amounts still show up as matches & i can confidently go back 6 generations

[Essnell]

brigidmac, 

Ummm I'm stuck!!  actually lost for words...... Thank you for your kind words and comments. 

It's been interesting writing the thread posts actually at times challenging. 
It's a balancing act between what is needed to be communicated and how to say it . I hope it's all been okay.

Many times I have rewritten posts over and over till I was happy it was accurate but thoughtful.

 unfortunately the only way to describe the composition of this family is endogamy and we know that that exists I many small communities the world over.     it not only screws up the cM values but makes tree making a task.

one step forward and one step backwards and step again with hope.... 
Essnell

[Essnell]

Good Morning Everyone,
I have had a break  to do some thinking and looking at another mystery.  so.....
Back to the best DNA cluster:

This is what I know:
Two are related as brother and sister

A third is related to both of those as a cousin.

Another is related as Aunt of another but I have not found out how and I have not found out how these two relate to the first three.

The sister mentioned above is also related to persons from another line.
She is also related to the Murray family line as her Gt Grandparents are known.

Everyone is in either Swan Hill or Balranald.  All  of this is DNA based .
Further:

Also somewhere it was suggested I try to communicate with some community members from this area.
 Yesterday I tried to find information on the Aboriginal Burial area at Balranald. I ended up emailing the appropriate custodians of the site through the Aboriginal Land Council at Balranald
I am asking if there is anyway to find out about burials there.  We shall see how this works out.

Otherwise I think some contact with these matches may be in order.
 
I am also considering the GedMatch suggestion for Gittalonglittledoggy  above.  if they agree . We shall see, 
Essnell.

[Essnell]

 Hi everyone: 

My delving into this cluster has given some further connections.  I am now convinced that he is Francis Frederick Murray.     So far there is still not a direct connection to Francis F M. 


However it is making connections to a couple of families, "Kirby" and  "Moore" plus some Smiths. 
Many marriages between the families so it is all very difficult to explain. The Smith connection is also surprising but ... knowing that this was quite a small community .....

Previously here:  in:  Other Countries - Australia " What happened to Frederick Murray"....  this will explain quite a lot.

The DNA cluster matches I have finally got to search out to build family trees for myself. Some are very interesting and since all are from the match list to S-I-L, I am on the right trail for further connection .

One part actually connects to Kirby and Arden ,as in the other thread , but from another direction.    I need to get a better grip on that before anything else.
This is now really getting exciting...   

Essnell.