Author Topic: Jean Hope born c1757 married Thomas Burgess born c1754 Dumfries  (Read 620 times)

Offline gemcy

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Jean Hope born c1757 married Thomas Burgess born c1754 Dumfries
« on: Thursday 15 May 25 19:34 BST (UK) »
Assistance please!  I have Jean Hope born abt 1757 probably from Dumfries as children appear to have been born in this area as was her husband, Thomas Burgess, born abt 1754 Hoddam?  1st child James Hope Burgess born 1778 as far as I’m aware but I can’t find a marriage, 2nd child 1784 John both Kirkpatrick area! Obviously with large year gap there is a ?  In all I believe 9 children, last is Jean Hope Burgess born 1803. (Info found in Scottish archives site)  to my problem…

On a genealogy website I found a fair amount of the above in ancestry trees but these showed Jean Hope’s parents as John Hope 2nd Earl of Hopetoun and Jean Oliphant and she was born at Abercorn! So I did some digging and found their daughter Jean, also later known as Jane, married first Henry Dundas 1st Viscount of Melville 1793 London and after his death Thomas Wallace, 1st Baron Wallace 1814!  All the historical information shows this Jean/Jane Hope died without any issue from both marriages and importantly to me no marriage to a Thomas Burgess!

Can anyone shine a light on ‘my’ Jean Hope from Dumfries please bearing in mind that two of the children are carrying their mother’s maiden name HOPE within their given names - is this showing some importance?

Thank you!
Glenda
Derbyshire, Leicestershire, Warwickshire, Essex, Suffolk, Northamptonshire, Scotland, NorthEast, Lancashire, Ireland Donegal/Antrim

Offline gc1

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Re: Jean Hope born c1757 married John Burgess born c1754 Dumfries
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 15 May 25 20:03 BST (UK) »
Weird find sorry ??? ???

Name   Jean Hope Burgess
Birth Date   1757
Death Date   19 Jan 1830
Event Type   Burial
Event Place   Kirkpatrick-Fleming, , Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland
Cemetery   Kirkpatrick-Fleming Churchyard

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q24M-MPGV?lang=en


Edit
Just re read your post and this is linked to the tree you mentioned so you may already have this but it states her husband is THOMAS Burgess not John ??? ??? ???


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Offline gc1

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Re: Jean Hope born c1757 married John Burgess born c1754 Dumfries
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 15 May 25 20:06 BST (UK) »
Name   John Burgess
Sex   Male
Father's Name   John Burgess
Father's Sex   Male
Event Type   Christening
Event Date   2 Sep 1753
Event Place   Dumfries, Dumfriesshire, Scotland

Father John Burgess

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT1T-98H?lang=en
Collison & Watts in Headcorn & Hollingborne (Kent UK) & Michigan (USA)
Kavanagh in Wexford (Eire) Michigan & California (USA)
Salisbury, Burls & Vanstone (UK & Gibraltar)

Offline gemcy

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Re: Jean Hope born c1757 married John Burgess born c1754 Dumfries
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 15 May 25 20:44 BST (UK) »
Apologies! Yes it’s Thomas and I’ve amended!  I have plenty of Johns and Jeans running around my head and I’ve, or thought I have,  looked in most areas for this Dumfries pair only to be told they belong, or she did, to the Hopetoun peerage!
Derbyshire, Leicestershire, Warwickshire, Essex, Suffolk, Northamptonshire, Scotland, NorthEast, Lancashire, Ireland Donegal/Antrim


Offline gemcy

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Re: Jean Hope born c1757 married John Burgess born c1754 Dumfries
« Reply #4 on: Friday 16 May 25 07:33 BST (UK) »
gc1 thank you for your input and finding Thomas Burgess's christening details!   The gravesite info on family search gives a lot of the Burgess family details which is really helpful coming forward but I’m still struggling to find this Jean Hope 1757 going back  :-\    Even on family search someone has her part of the Hopetoun peerage showing her married to Thomas Burgess but also married to Henry Dundas, the dates there just don’t fit, hence my confusion and trying to sort ‘my’ Jean Hope in Dumfries from the ‘Lady’ Jean Hope in Abercorn.   

Derbyshire, Leicestershire, Warwickshire, Essex, Suffolk, Northamptonshire, Scotland, NorthEast, Lancashire, Ireland Donegal/Antrim

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Jean Hope born c1757 married Thomas Burgess born c1754 Dumfries
« Reply #5 on: Friday 16 May 25 09:54 BST (UK) »
On a genealogy website I found a fair amount of the above in ancestry trees but these showed Jean Hope’s parents as John Hope 2nd Earl of Hopetoun and Jean Oliphant and she was born at Abercorn!
Never, ever, trust anything you find on line, and especially don't trust trees submitted to commercial web sites like Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and such-like - even FamilySearch - unless it's an image of an original document, and even then there can be errors.

According to the index at Scotland's People (SP), there are three surviving records of baptisms of children to Thomas Burgess and Jean Hope, all in Kirkpatrick Fleming, between 1784 and 1792.

Have you looked at the baptism records of the Burgess/Hope children that you can find? Do they tell you what Thomas Burgess' occupation was? Was his occupation consistent with his wife being a peer's daughter?

Though it doesn't actually matter because there is evidence to disprove it.

According to SP, Lady Jean Hope, daughter of John Hope, Earl of Hopetoun and Jean Oliphant, was baptised on 18 December 1766 in the parish of Abercorn.

According to www.thepeerage.com, she married Henry Dundas, Viscount Melville, on 2 April 1793 and then Thomas Wallace on 2 February 1814, and died in 1829. I know, don't trust what you find online .... however ....

The Reading Mercury of 1 April 1793 has the following announcement: "Married, by special licence, the Right Hon Henry Dundas, Secretary of State for the Home Department, to the Right Hon Lady Jane Hope".

An announcement in the Bristol Mirror of 19 February 1814 reads, "On Wednesday, the 16th inst, by special licence, by the Hon and Rev the Dean of Windsor, The Right Hon Thomas Wallace MP to the Right Hon Jane, Viscountess Melville".

And according to the register of burials in the parish of Haltwhistle, Northumberland, Jane, Dowager Viscountess Melville and Baroness Wallace, 33 Portman Square, St Marylebone, aged 62, was buried there on 27 June 1829.

So it appears that www.thepeerage.com is correct about Lady Jane Hope.

If your Jean Hope died in 1830, her life clearly overlaps with that of Lady Jane Hope, therefore they are two entirely different people, therefore those online trees are plainly wrong and you can safely dismiss and ignore them.

And in future, don't bother with commercial web sites unless they have copies of original documents. And definitely don't trust them.

Don't trust me, either - take a look at those original documents to confirm that I'm not just making it all up like the lazy sloppy researchers who have submitted those trees without checking that they are correct. (I would have posted extracts but I might have fallen foul of RootsChat's copyright rules.)

See also https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline gemcy

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Re: Jean Hope born c1757 married Thomas Burgess born c1754 Dumfries
« Reply #6 on: Friday 16 May 25 18:33 BST (UK) »
Forfarian! Thank you, thank you!  You have confirmed I was right to dig into historical documentation  not accept what everyone else was thinking & saying!
And I won’t trust before actual documented evidence, which is what I usually look for but evidence here was fairly overwhelming that these two women were the same individuals but the dates didn’t sit right hence me turning to you at RootsChat for that ‘shine a light’ !

Forgot to mention the baptism records don’t give Fathers occupation unfortunately :(

Truly thankful! :) Glenda
Derbyshire, Leicestershire, Warwickshire, Essex, Suffolk, Northamptonshire, Scotland, NorthEast, Lancashire, Ireland Donegal/Antrim

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Jean Hope born c1757 married Thomas Burgess born c1754 Dumfries
« Reply #7 on: Friday 16 May 25 19:22 BST (UK) »
You are very welcome. Glad to have been able to help.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline Annied69

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Re: Jean Hope born c1757 married Thomas Burgess born c1754 Dumfries
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 17 June 25 22:34 BST (UK) »
Gemcy

I have had exactly the same issue with Jean Hope as she is my 4xG grandmother. However am struggling with going any further back with her. Have you had the same problem?