Author Topic: Two cryptic words - 1800s French  (Read 321 times)

Offline goldie61

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Re: Two cryptic words - 1800s French
« Reply #9 on: Monday 05 May 25 21:53 BST (UK) »
I've found these 'fancy swirls' appear very often after French signatures.
I've seen many of them and was trying to find out more about them just last week.

They are evidently called 'paraphs'.
From the dictionary:
paraph | ˈparaf |
noun
a flourish after a signature, originally as a precaution against forgery.
from French paraphe, from medieval Latin paraphus (contraction of paragraphus ‘short horizontal stroke’).

Joger has written
'the first one may be : troisième et dernier role paraphe ( signed initial for habrial) or paraphe and fancy swirl', which suggests they think the 'paraphe' is the initial signed?
The dictionary says the 'fancy swirl' is called the paraph.

Added:
This is why I was looking into this!
This marriage from 1639 has at least 6 men using different paraphs.
Interestingly, the two women, Marie Darsy, the bride, top right, and Jeanne Hesdoul, second left, the groom's aunt, don't use one, but I think what's even more interesting is that both of them can actually sign their names.
At this date many people, especially women, 'make their mark', the same as you would find in British records.

SO interesting when you find original records.  :)
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline joger

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Re: Two cryptic words - 1800s French
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 06 May 25 09:49 BST (UK) »
Goldie : I chose to use paraphe in the sense  used under B.2.a et b  here:
https://www.cnrtl.fr/lexicographie/paraphe

Which is a modern sense of the word ( I " paraph" all the pages of a contract when I go and see my "notaire ") and makes a difference with the " fancy swirl" also called parafe or paraphe (and which is part of the signature of many people even nowadays  and which is what is written after the last letter of the name and can be only a point or a line under the name).

More than a precaution against forgery the paraphe on all the pages of a contract is a proof that you have read all the pages and a way of saving time and space on the paper.

Offline goldie61

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Re: Two cryptic words - 1800s French
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 06 May 25 22:03 BST (UK) »
Interesting joger.  :)
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline shanreagh

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Re: Two cryptic words - 1800s French
« Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 11:26 »
...
More than a precaution against forgery the paraphe on all the pages of a contract is a proof that you have read all the pages and a way of saving time and space on the paper.

In my working life I had to sign/witness many legal documents.  The requirement was that one's usual signature appeared in full as a witness/signatory but that any amendments/alterations made were what we 'initialled' as were the bottoms of any pages were there was not a full signature. So any appendices had to have each page initialled, usually on the bottom right of the page.    My initials were both first names and surname so CCT.  When I was married and had a 'double banger' name it was CCT-S, complete with hyphen.  I guess this would be correctly called a 'paraphe'.


Offline joger

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Re: Two cryptic words - 1800s French
« Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 13:17 »
Absolutely right!

Offline Zacktyr

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Re: Two cryptic words - 1800s French
« Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 22:57 »
Hello, everyone,

Thank you to each and every one of you for tackling this cryptic little phrase.  Joger's and Goldie61's conversation on paraph is very interesting.  I was a certified law clerk for 18 years and, like Shanreagh, had to affix my initials to the margins of many documents, particularly Wills.  But, never could an extra swirl be added.  So, it is very interesting to discover that those little fancy swirls actually have a term - a paraph.  I have attached another image from the document to show the fancy identical fancy swirl after the initial in the margin and at the foot of the page. 

For MichelBaboulinet, you may find the two highlighted capital "C"s interesting in the context of the second word in the margin entry.  This is what lead me to adopt "a cote" as a hastily written possibility. For MichelBaboulinet I have also added an image of the capital "R"s found in various French documents and have highlighted the one that closely resembles the first letter in that second word.  This image is from BYU's French Handwriting website.

As to that one cryptic word, between Zefiro's input regarding the meaning of "à côté de" and PatLac's contributions that have convinced me that the word is "Rôle", defined as being the front and back of a page of a notarial deed.  That word has no direct translation in English.  But, in English we use the word "folio" to describe a sheet of paper, both front and back, or recto and verso.

So with that said, I believe I can put this little puzzle to rest.  Thank you, again, everyone.  Sometimes, it takes a village to get to the facts.
CRN-Hocking
DVN-Bickle.Doble.Harris.Hill.Nrthcte
KEN-Austen.Bodeker.Collard.Dodd.Duncan.Eaton.Gregry.Hammnd.Herman.Hills.Hodgs.Ivysn.
James.Kemp.Milstd.Nut.Owlet.Ruck.Spilet.Terry.Tilby.Thmsn.Walker
SOM-Baker.Clatworthy.Linton.Parker.Smith.Stone.Twose
ABD-Barclay.Cruickshank.McKenzie.Shepherd.Club
LKS-Douglas.Gunn.Turner
MLN-Dicks/Dickson.Duff.Lindsay.Young
SHI-Bain.Cluness.Fordyce.Gray.Petrie
ASSISTANCE PROVIDED HERE IS FROM MY OWN DIRECT EXPERIENCE & NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS LEGAL ADVICE