Author Topic: Can anyone please help me with something  (Read 418 times)

Offline dorothyl

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Can anyone please help me with something
« on: Friday 11 April 25 22:45 BST (UK) »
Hello again everyone. I'm having trouble with something. I'm a member of a group on Facebook it's called Manchester military 1914 - 1918. I asked a question about something to do with the difference between the 13th btn Manchester and the 18th btn Manchester Regiment.
All I got was someone trying to be clever making me feel like I don't know any.
So I googled it. And found out something.
So I posted it on the group.
Then I got asked where did I get my source from as what I posted was wrong.
And could I put a link so they can tell me.
 I've been trying to find the link but I can't find it.

So I thought I know who can help me.
The ones who I trust.

My original search was trying to find out
Where my 2 great uncles started off before they went off to fight.
I was also told that my great uncle Thomas Coopers regiment was the 18th btn Manchester Regiment and not the 13th as it was on a page.

Please if anyone can help me with anything at all. I really would a it.
It's just that I'm being told so many different things in comments on the group.
And I'm being told I'm wrong. Even if I googled it to find out what I'm trying to find. Please can anyone help me?
Thank you all again for your help and your time.
Kind regards
Dorothy

Offline AllanUK

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Re: Can anyone please help me with something
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 13 April 25 17:48 BST (UK) »
Hope this assists you (from the website The Long, Long Trail)

13th (Service) Battalion
Formed at Ashton-under-Lyne in September 1914, as part of K3 and attached as Army Troops to 25th Division. Moved to Seaford.
October 1914 : transferred to 66th Brigade in 22nd Division. Moved to billets in Eastbourne in November and returned to Seaford in March 1915. Went on to Aldershot in May.
September 1915 : landed in France.
October 1915 : moved to Salonika.
22 June 1918 : left the Division and returned to France, arriving at Abancourt on 11 July 1918.
21 July 1918 : attached to 66th (2nd East Lancashire) Division.
30 July 1918 : absorbed the 17th Bn.
13 August 1918 : absorbed into the 1/9th Bn.

------------------------------

18th (Service) Battalion (3rd City)
Formed in Manchester on 28 August 1914 by the Lord Mayor and City. Record same as 16th Bn.
20 February 1918 : disbanded at Haut Allaines.

Offline AllanUK

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Re: Can anyone please help me with something
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 13 April 25 17:50 BST (UK) »
As the 18th Battalion's record was the same as the 16th battalion ---

16th (Service) Battalion (1st City)
Formed in Manchester on 28 August 1914 by the Lord Mayor and City. Initially established at Heaton Park but moved in April 1915 to Belton Park, where placed under command of 90th Brigade in 30th Division. Moved on to Larkhill in September 1915.
6 November 1915 : landed in France.
13 May 1918 : reduced to cadre strength.
18 June 1918 : moved to Boulogne and transferred to 42nd Brigade in 14th (Light) Division. Returned to England and moved to Cowshott. Reconstituted by absorbing 29th Bn.
4 July 1918 : returned to France.

Offline J.J.

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Re: Can anyone please help me with something
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 13 April 25 20:49 BST (UK) »
Hello, dorothyl...Yes, you can always rely on some kind help from Rootschatters. Such as AllanUK's helpful posts.
  Just wanted to add a warning, for you or anyone looking in...as, although Google won out as the most intuitive search engine many years ago...they have deleted a great deal of information from the web, and recently have been using A.I. for their top search...
   Unreliable answers, though, as it often uses whatever has been clicked on the most as being the "correct" answer. Or it simply makes up some nondescript pile of garbage compiled of many things it finds & actually uses it as an answer. One time I was so perturbed that I actually trained it to give the correct answer, which has probably changed now, due to it returning to whatever answer is clicked on most often, which may be some popular messaging site with incorrect answers, or even just someone's opinion.
♡ ♥ ♡ ♥ ♡ ♥ ♡ ♥ ♡ ♥ ♡ ♥  Always looking out for the BHC  ♥ ♡ ♥ ♡ ♥ ♡ ♥ ♡ ♥ ♡ ♥ ♡
           In recognition of the homechildren, their plight & their achievements!

"We search for information, but the burden of proof is always with the thread owner" J.J.


Offline AlanBoyd

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Re: Can anyone please help me with something
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 13 April 25 21:04 BST (UK) »
Out of interest, I asked Perplexity AI about the two battalions in WWI. Here is my (poorly worded) question and the answer ( I haven’t repaired the formatting), and I will post the sources in the next replay as some of them may be useful. I can’t judge how good the answer is.

In WWI, (England), what were the histories of the 13th and 18th battalions of the Manchester Regiment?

The 13th and 18th Battalions of the Manchester Regiment played distinct roles in World War I, with the 13th serving primarily on the Western Front and the 18th participating in pivotal Somme offensives as part of the "Manchester Pals." 

### 13th (Service) Battalion 
- **Formation**: Created in Ashton-under-Lyne in September 1914[4][5]. 
- **Deployment**: Trained at Eastbourne, Seaford, and Aldershot before arriving in France in September 1915 with the 22nd Division[4][5]. 
- **Combat History**: 
  - Occupied trenches near **Hébuterne** and **Foucaucourt** by early 1916, facing frequent artillery shelling and sniper activity[4]. 
  - Conducted raids in May 1916 near **Ferne du Bois**, including a successful grenade attack on German trenches, resulting in Military Medals for bravery[4]. 
  - Supported the **Battle of the Somme** in July 1916, participating in a failed attack near **Maltz Horn Farm** alongside French forces[4]. 
  - In July 1918, absorbed the **29th Battalion** and returned to France under the 14th (Light) Division[5]. 

### 18th (Service) Battalion (3rd City Pals) 
- **Formation**: Raised in Manchester in August 1914 as part of the "Manchester Pals" by the Lord Mayor[1][5]. 
- **Deployment**: Joined the **30th Division** and landed in France in November 1915[1][5]. 
- **Combat History**: 
  - Fought in the **Battle of the Somme** (July 1916), attacking **Guillemont** on 30 July. During this action, **Company Sergeant-Major George Evans** earned the Victoria Cross for delivering a critical message under heavy fire[1][2]. 
  - Suffered catastrophic losses at **Manchester Hill** during the 1918 German Spring Offensive, where Lieutenant-Colonel Wilfrith Elstob declared, “Here we fight, and here we die,” before being killed[1]. 
  - Disbanded in February 1918 at **Haut Allaines** due to heavy casualties[5]. 

Both battalions exemplified the Manchester Regiment’s resilience, with the 13th enduring prolonged trench warfare and the 18th becoming synonymous with the sacrifice of the Pals battalions.

Boyd, Dove, Blakey, Burdon

Offline AlanBoyd

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Re: Can anyone please help me with something
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 13 April 25 21:05 BST (UK) »
Sources
[1] Manchester Regiment - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Regiment
[2] The Manchester Regiment, (18th Service Battalion) 3rd City Pals. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/community/3766
[3] The Manchester Regiment | National Army Museum https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/manchester-regiment
[4] Service-Battalions-1914-1919 https://www.tameside.gov.uk/MuseumsandGalleries/Service-Battalions-1914-1919
[5] Manchester Regiment - The Long, Long Trail https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/manchester-regiment/
[6] 13TH BATTALION, MANCHESTER REGIMENT TRAINING IN ... https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205027457
[7] Service records | First World War archives | Manchester City Council https://www.manchester.gov.uk/info/324/family_history_searches/7372/first_world_war_archives/2
[8] Private Ben Vinge (1892-1917), 5792, 13th Battalion Manchester ... https://www.cwgc.org/stories/stories/private-ben-vinge-1892-1917-5792-13th-battalion-manchester-regiment/
[9] Rolls of honour and battalions | First World War archives https://www.manchester.gov.uk/info/324/family_history_searches/7372/first_world_war_archives
[10] 13th Battalion, Manchester Regiment. https://rememberourdeadregimentallist.weebly.com/13th-battalion-manchester-regiment.html
[11] 13th Battalion, Manchester Regiment in the Great War https://www.wartimememoriesproject.com/greatwar/allied/battalion.php?pid=7587
[12] Search for "Manchester Regiment" in unit | Lives of the First World War https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/searchlives/field/unit/Manchester%20Regiment/filter
[13] MANCHESTER REGIMENT 13th Battalion (Service) https://ww1photos.com/Regiments/Manchester/13th.html
[14] 13TH BATTALION, MANCHESTER REGIMENT IN THE SALONIKA ... https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205400219
[15] Battle Honours of The Manchester Regiment - Tameside Council https://www.tameside.gov.uk/MuseumsandGalleries/Battle-Honours
[16] 31 July 1918 (First World War, War Diary, WO95/3145/6) https://www.naval-military-press.com/product/66-division-199-infantry-brigade-manchester-regiment-13th-battalion-1-july-1918-31-july-1918-first-world-war-war-diary-wo95-3145-6/
[17] Manchester Regiment – First World War Soldiers Photos https://ww1photos.com/firstworldwarsoldiers/index.php/manchester-regiment/
[18] mid_6811724.jpg?sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjZ7Y-O5dWMAxX0TKQEHW6VLBEQ_B16BAgCEAI https://media.iwm.org.uk/pdm/ciim-media/6/811/724/mid_6811724.jpg?sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjZ7Y-O5dWMAxX0TKQEHW6VLBEQ_B16BAgCEAI
[19] 18th Battalion - The Manchester Regiment Group https://www../18th%20batt.htm
[20] British Army soldiers of the First World War - The National Archives https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-army-soldiers-of-the-first-world-war/
[21] 18th (3rd City) Battalion, Manchester Regiment in the Great War https://www.wartimememoriesproject.com/greatwar/allied/battalion.php?pid=6680
[22] 18th Battalion - The Manchester Regiment Group https://www../salmon%20twist.htm
[23] 18th (3rd City) Battalion, Manchester Regiment in the Great War https://wartimememoriesproject.com/greatwar/allied/battalion.php?pid=6680
[24] 18th Manchester Regiment - British Army Ancestors https://www.britisharmyancestors.co.uk/blog/18th-manchester-regiment/
[25] Service Records - Soldiers and their units - Great War Forum https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/307943-service-records/
[26] Ernest McNamara 18th Battalion https://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/2014/06/05/ernest-mcnamara-18th-battalion/
[27] 18 Battalion Manchester Regiment - Discovery | The National Archives https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353658
[28] Manchester Regiment 18th Battalion https://ww1hull.com/directory-newtest/categories/manchester-regiment-18th-battalion/
[29] 18th battalion Manchester regiment war diary? - Great War Forum https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/306285-18th-battalion-manchester-regiment-war-diary/
[30] mid_6811724.jpg?sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj5xY-O5dWMAxV8LPsDHYIOJz4Q_B16BAgBEAI https://media.iwm.org.uk/pdm/ciim-media/6/811/724/mid_6811724.jpg?sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj5xY-O5dWMAxV8LPsDHYIOJz4Q_B16BAgBEAI
[31] British Army war diaries 1914-1922 - The National Archives https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-army-war-diaries-1914-1922/
Boyd, Dove, Blakey, Burdon

Offline alan o

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Re: Can anyone please help me with something
« Reply #6 on: Monday 14 April 25 10:42 BST (UK) »
Dorothy

The concise answer is that they were 2 separate battalions but he could have been in both as men were often transferred to make up numbers.

Alan

Offline BumbleB

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Re: Can anyone please help me with something
« Reply #7 on: Monday 14 April 25 14:39 BST (UK) »
Dorothy and I have been over this on a number of occasions.

Thomas Cooper - 26346 Manchester Regiment

Soldier's Effects = 18th
Medal Card = no regiment detailed
Pension record = 18th
Card with address and wife details (can't remember where we found this) = 18th
CWGC - Thiepval memorial card = 13th
Manchester Evening News, 1916 = Manchester Regiment
Manchester Evening News, 1918 = 18th
CWGC - Thiepval with image of the memorial = 18th

Added:  Thiepval - Commemorative Information = 13th

Added 2:  FindMyPast - Britain, First World War Campaign Medals -  1914 = 25th, 1915 = 18th and previous unit = 17th
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Offline JenB

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Re: Can anyone please help me with something
« Reply #8 on: Monday 14 April 25 15:52 BST (UK) »
Quote
My original search was trying to find out
Where my 2 great uncles started off before they went off to fight.
I was also told that my great uncle Thomas Coopers regiment was the 18th btn Manchester Regiment and not the 13th as it was on a page.

See this thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=855180.msg7234144#msg7234144
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