Registration of Death

[shanreagh]

From Wexflyer


1. Both the bride and groom were from Ireland. There never was any legal inhibition on Catholic marriages in Ireland, so no issue arises.

....


From Brian

1. If another couple had married in a RC church in Ireland before 1836 without an Anglican priest present, and moved to England, would their marriage be seen as legally binding in an English court? I may be wrong, but my research suggests not.

Judging by what i know of the Irish character especially in areas where there might have been some elements of discrimination, as in the various waves of Irish people moving to England,  I think most Irish in the UK would be supremely unconcerned that their marriages in Ireland might not be legal in England.  The influence of the church was far greater than the influence of any civil power.  From my knowledge often Irish people coming to England were following a process similar 
to what we call a chain migration.  (Though being the same country it is not a migration as such)

Usually some enterprising person moved to England for work. Others would follow and get welcomed into a community comprising others from the village, locality or Ireland complete with a good irish Catholic Church to go  Here they often recreated their Irish life working, socialising and worshipping with fellow Irish.  If they had married in the eyes of the church then that was all that was needed. Also the Irish moving to England would, for the most part be wanting to keep their heads down and would not usually be wanting to engage with the courts (perhaps riotous celebrations and possible court appearances following these might be the extent of any engagement). I think that the access to community Poor Law funds and the fairly punitive regimes may have driven the law change. The inability to access help from the community  by accessing Poor law funds probably drove the formation of Hibernian type organisations and those through the churches. Self help. 

'In England, the Hibernian Society refers to the Ancient Order of Hibernians (AOH), an Irish Catholic fraternal organization, and also to the Hibernian Sick and Funeral Society, a historical fraternal association that evolved into a defensive society.
Here's a more detailed breakdown:
Ancient Order of Hibernians (AOH):
The AOH is a fraternal organization with roots in Ireland, tracing back to the Defenders in 1565, who protected Roman Catholic priests and the Church from English persecution.
The AOH exists in various countries, including America, Canada, Ireland, England, Wales, and Scotland.
Membership is restricted to practicing Roman Catholic men of Irish birth or descent.
The AOH emphasizes principles of friendship, unity, and Christian charity.
The Ladies Ancient Order of Hibernians (LAOH) is a separate organization for women dedicated to the same principles.
Hibernian Sick and Funeral Society:
This was a historical fraternal association that initially focused on promoting the welfare of members and their families.
It evolved into a defensive society, protecting the church, clergy, and members from opposition.
The AOH, with its motto of "Friendship, Unity, and Christian Charity," can trace its lineage back to the Defenders of 1565 and the Hibernian Sick and Funeral Society'
From Wiki.

[shanreagh]

Continued
From Brian
2. The information I provided regarding Edmund's birth was based on 3 Census records and his death registration, none of which concur on his date of birth. With the kind help of people on this forum I have located 2 more Census records attributed to him and none of them have the same DOB either. The first one pushes his DOB back to 1821. ......

In those days there was not the stress on birthdays and celebrations as we know them now.  Many were illiterate and had no way of knowing the correct date of birth.  Baptism/marriage registers are valuable but many records were not kept. You are very lucky that you have got back quite a distance without running into this.  There is a saying that in the times when people did not know their ages or different spellings of their names that the marriage certificates may be better regarded as sources.  This was because at least the names on MCs  at least may have been dictated to a parish priest from a person's  own knowledge - not the case with births or deaths obviously. 

From Brian

3b. You state that 'After all it was and is the case that you can change your name at will, no marriage required in any case'. I would therefore kindly suggest that your first answer is technically incorrect and the one kindly provide by 'KGarrad' on page 1 of this thread is correct. They stated 'A death registered in England or Wales will be under the name the person was known by.
Or, more likely, the name the informant knew them by.'


Again a point to realise is that we are talking about the Irish here.  Once a woman married she was known by her married name.  It was only really in Scotland that there is a strong emphasis on maiden names.  This has carried over to an extent to the north of Ireland where there was a Scottish/Presbyterian influence.  Though those Irish who did keep the maiden names alive in children's names to a certain extent were often likely to give a second name to a child that harked back to a respected figure in the community rather than a maiden name. 

This has more info.
Traditional Naming Pattern
A traditional naming pattern was often used by Irish parents until the later 19th century:

First son usually named for the father's father
Second son usually named for the mother's father
Third son usually named for the father
Fourth son usually named for the father's eldest brother
Fifth son usually named for the mother's eldest brother
First daughter usually named for the mother's mother
Second daughter usually named for the father's mother
Third daughter usually named for the mother
Fourth daughter usually named for the mother's eldest sister
Fifth daughter usually named for the father's eldest sister.

From here
https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Ireland_Naming_Customs

So to research back, a knowledge of first names, short names/forms is essential...then getting to know that Nancy & Agnes,  Bridget & Delia (Bedelia) may be interchangeable, May/Mary/Molly etc etc. Timothy/Thaddeus

[shanreagh]

Apparently the thread is already marked as completed!

If you get to the stage of wanting more inormation from the Irish  side then please refer/link to this thread when you do so. Doing this is a courtesy to future researchers and gives them info on what others had found. 

[BrianClaydon]

From Wexflyer


1. Both the bride and groom were from Ireland. There never was any legal inhibition on Catholic marriages in Ireland, so no issue arises.

....




From Brian

1. If another couple had married in a RC church in Ireland before 1836 without an Anglican priest present, and moved to England, would their marriage be seen as legally binding in an English court? I may be wrong, but my research suggests not.

Judging by what i know of the Irish character especially in areas where there might have been some elements of discrimination, as in the various waves of Irish people moving to England,  I think most Irish in the UK would be supremely unconcerned that their marriages in Ireland might not be legal in England.  The influence of the church was far greater than the influence of any civil power.  From my knowledge often Irish people coming to England were following a process similar 
to what we call a chain migration.  (Though being the same country it is not a migration as such)

Usually some enterprising person moved to England for work. Others would follow and get welcomed into a community comprising others from the village, locality or Ireland complete with a good irish Catholic Church to go  Here they often recreated their Irish life working, socialising and worshipping with fellow Irish.  If they had married in the eyes of the church then that was all that was needed. Also the Irish moving to England would, for the most part be wanting to keep their heads down and would not usually be wanting to engage with the courts (perhaps riotous celebrations and possible court appearances following these might be the extent of any engagement). I think that the access to community Poor Law funds and the fairly punitive regimes may have driven the law change. The inability to access help from the community  by accessing Poor law funds probably drove the formation of Hibernian type organisations and those through the churches. Self help. 

'In England, the Hibernian Society refers to the Ancient Order of Hibernians (AOH), an Irish Catholic fraternal organization, and also to the Hibernian Sick and Funeral Society, a historical fraternal association that evolved into a defensive society.
Here's a more detailed breakdown:
Ancient Order of Hibernians (AOH):
The AOH is a fraternal organization with roots in Ireland, tracing back to the Defenders in 1565, who protected Roman Catholic priests and the Church from English persecution.
The AOH exists in various countries, including America, Canada, Ireland, England, Wales, and Scotland.
Membership is restricted to practicing Roman Catholic men of Irish birth or descent.
The AOH emphasizes principles of friendship, unity, and Christian charity.
The Ladies Ancient Order of Hibernians (LAOH) is a separate organization for women dedicated to the same principles.
Hibernian Sick and Funeral Society:
This was a historical fraternal association that initially focused on promoting the welfare of members and their families.
It evolved into a defensive society, protecting the church, clergy, and members from opposition.
The AOH, with its motto of "Friendship, Unity, and Christian Charity," can trace its lineage back to the Defenders of 1565 and the Hibernian Sick and Funeral Society'
From Wiki.

Hi shanreagh,

thank you very much for taking the time to write such a detailed and interesting post. I know very little of my Irish ancestry - I have a little on my father's side which has stumped me somewhat before about 1783 in Kilbrogan, Cork. This year I have started my mother's side of the tree which has many more Irish and RC ancestors. It is somewhat new territory to me.

I appreciate what you are stating about the support from the Catholic Church and the Irish community in general. From what I had read recently, one of the reasons for the law change in 1836 was to do with abandoned wives and children. I thought (perhaps mistakenly) that if this occurred before 1836 there was little recourse for the wives in the English justice system, to get support for themselves, and their children from absent fathers. From your post it seems that this may not have been such a big issue as historically presented, and that the RC church and Irish community would step up and provide support in those circumstances. I'm surprised that the English law did not throw up obstacles in inheriting for Catholic families in England before 1836 as well, but like I say, this is all new to me.

Regards,

Brian

[BrianClaydon]

Continued
From Brian
2. The information I provided regarding Edmund's birth was based on 3 Census records and his death registration, none of which concur on his date of birth. With the kind help of people on this forum I have located 2 more Census records attributed to him and none of them have the same DOB either. The first one pushes his DOB back to 1821. ......

In those days there was not the stress on birthdays and celebrations as we know them now.  Many were illiterate and had no way of knowing the correct date of birth.  Baptism/marriage registers are valuable but many records were not kept. You are very lucky that you have got back quite a distance without running into this.  There is a saying that in the times when people did not know their ages or different spellings of their names that the marriage certificates may be better regarded as sources.  This was because at least the names on MCs  at least may have been dictated to a parish priest from a person's  own knowledge - not the case with births or deaths obviously. 

From Brian

3b. You state that 'After all it was and is the case that you can change your name at will, no marriage required in any case'. I would therefore kindly suggest that your first answer is technically incorrect and the one kindly provide by 'KGarrad' on page 1 of this thread is correct. They stated 'A death registered in England or Wales will be under the name the person was known by.
Or, more likely, the name the informant knew them by.'


Again a point to realise is that we are talking about the Irish here.  Once a woman married she was known by her married name.  It was only really in Scotland that there is a strong emphasis on maiden names.  This has carried over to an extent to the north of Ireland where there was a Scottish/Presbyterian influence.  Though those Irish who did keep the maiden names alive in children's names to a certain extent were often likely to give a second name to a child that harked back to a respected figure in the community rather than a maiden name. 

This has more info.
Traditional Naming Pattern
A traditional naming pattern was often used by Irish parents until the later 19th century:

First son usually named for the father's father
Second son usually named for the mother's father
Third son usually named for the father
Fourth son usually named for the father's eldest brother
Fifth son usually named for the mother's eldest brother
First daughter usually named for the mother's mother
Second daughter usually named for the father's mother
Third daughter usually named for the mother
Fourth daughter usually named for the mother's eldest sister
Fifth daughter usually named for the father's eldest sister.

From here
https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Ireland_Naming_Customs

So to research back, a knowledge of first names, short names/forms is essential...then getting to know that Nancy & Agnes,  Bridget & Delia (Bedelia) may be interchangeable, May/Mary/Molly etc etc. Timothy/Thaddeus

Hi again shanreagh,

thanks again for the further information. You stated here:

'In those days there was not the stress on birthdays and celebrations as we know them now.  Many were illiterate and had no way of knowing the correct date of birth.  Baptism/marriage registers are valuable but many records were not kept. You are very lucky that you have got back quite a distance without running into this.'

I understand the point you make here and I certainly agree with it. My main tree which predominantly features my father's side of the family goes back to the early 1700's on a number of branches. There is about 3,000 people on it to date, which will probably seem quite small to a number of people on this forum. I frequently see that the dates given can fluctuate, but to be honest, not often by a great deal. I would say three years is probably average, and a lot of this can be explained by when the census date falls in a year, or if the person was born late in one year and recorded/registered early the next. I can't recall any other ancestor whose DOB fluctuates as much as Edmund D'arcy on official documents, or indeed the discrepancies recorded for his children. This prompts me to consider whether he was visited many times by incompetent census takers, was very muddled, had a strong accent or was deliberately obfuscating. It is noteworthy in comparison to my other ancestors.

I have a suspicion that the naming pattern you have provided will be invaluable going forwards and I really appreciate you passing it my way. Thanks again for taking the time to make these points, and I will certainly attempt to link to this post when I return for my help with my Irish and RC forbears.

Kind Regards,

Brian