Registration of Death

[jonwarrn]

We can share it 

[BrianClaydon]

We can share it 

Apologies Jonwarrn,

I missed that amongst all the other helpful replies. Thank you both very much, you have been extremely helpful and given me much to sink my teeth in to.

I'm going to close the post now as my question has been answered and I have been gifted even more than expected.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to read my post, and particularly to those that posted. A great community.

B

[Wexflyer]

I cannot find an RC or Civil marriage for them so far. My question though is this: If a couple married in an RC church, and not in an Anglican one or at a registry office, Would her death registration show D'arcy [Or Darcy/Darcey] or her maiden name of Walsh?

An amazing question, which I don't see answered. Her married name, of course.

[BrianClaydon]

I cannot find an RC or Civil marriage for them so far. My question though is this: If a couple married in an RC church, and not in an Anglican one or at a registry office, Would her death registration show D'arcy [Or Darcy/Darcey] or her maiden name of Walsh?

An amazing question, which I don't see answered. Her married name, of course.

Hi Wexflyer,

thank you for your post. I am intrigued as to why you consider this 'an amazing' question? As I stated, I know little of my RC ancestors and how the law applied to them. As to whether it had been answered, I think someone kindly did that on page 1.

Overnight research has indicated that marriages performed after 1836 in a Catholic Church were considered legally binding. Before that however the Catholic service either had to have an Anglican clergyman present, or another service had to be conducted at an Anglican Church to confer legal status to the marriage in the English courts. This is why I enquired whether the married name would be legally recognised when the death was registered - particularly as I did not know the date of their  probable RC marriage.

Is it amazing that I was unaware of the date of 1836, and the changes it conferred? Or something else? It appears your historical knowledge is greater than mine and I apologise for my apparent deficiency.

Regards,

Brian

[Wexflyer]

1. Both the husband and wife were from Ireland. There never was any legal inhibition on Catholic marriages in Ireland, so no issue arises if married there.

2. You stated that your Edmund/Edward D'Arcy was born ca. 1829. Consequently, he was only about 7 years old when the marriage law in England changed in 1836. An impossibly young age, so no issue arises if married in England either - as must have been long after 1836.

3. It was and is the case that you can change your name at will, no marriage required. So if she called herself D'Arcy, then whether there was a marriage or what sort is really irrelevant.

[BrianClaydon]

1. Both the bride and groom were from Ireland. There never was any legal inhibition on Catholic marriages in Ireland, so no issue arises.

2. You stated that your Edmund/Edward D'Arcy was born ca. 1829. Consequently, he was only about 7 years old when the marriage law in England changed in 1836. An impossibly young age, so no issue arises.

3. Catholic marriages were of course fully valid in cannon law. I doubt a Catholic would care about the English civil law position. After all, it was and is the case that you can change your name at will, no marriage required in any case.

Hi Wexflyer,

thanks for your response. So I guess it was my lack of knowledge about the 1836 law change that you considered 'Amazing'. Perhaps you could help me then with some further clarification to your 3 points.

1. If another couple had married in a RC church in Ireland before 1836 without an Anglican priest present, and moved to England, would their marriage be seen as legally binding in an English court? I may be wrong, but my research suggests not.

2. The information I provided regarding Edmund's birth was based on 3 Census records and his death registration, none of which concur on his date of birth. With the kind help of people on this forum I have located 2 more Census records attributed to him and none of them have the same DOB either. The first one pushes his DOB back to 1821. He may even be older than that. That aside, as I expressed earlier I was 'amazingly' unaware yesterday of the significance of the law change in 1836.

3. You state that you 'doubt a Catholic would care about the English Civil Law position', but from what I understand, and I could well be wrong, one of the reasons the new law was enacted was to provide protection to RC women whose husbands had left them, and who had little recourse with the English justice system.

3b. You state that 'After all it was and is the case that you can change your name at will, no marriage required in any case'. I would therefore kindly suggest that your first answer is technically incorrect and the one kindly provide by 'KGarrad' on page 1 of this thread is correct. They stated 'A death registered in England or Wales will be under the name the person was known by.
Or, more likely, the name the informant knew them by.'

Regards, Brian

[jonwarrn]

I don't think we have found a marriage, nor so far a death for Mary / Margaret D'Arcy.
Francis was baptised in 1867 (born 1866) with mother apparently Joanna O'Day.
If in fact Edmund and M were not married (we don't know),  could her death have been registered as Welsh (or similar)?

Another birth?
D'ARCY, WILLIAM       
Mother's Maiden Surname: WELCH 
GRO Reference: 1849  M Quarter in ST GILES IN THE FIELDS & ST GEORGE BLOOMSBURY  Volume 01  Page 63

Is there a death/burial for him in St Giles?

[BrianClaydon]

I don't think we have found a marriage, nor so far a death for Mary / Margaret D'Arcy.
Francis was baptised in 1867 (born 1866) with mother apparently Joanna O'Day.
If in fact Edmund and M were not married (we don't know),  could her death have been registered as Welsh (or similar)?

Another birth?
D'ARCY, WILLIAM       
Mother's Maiden Surname: WELCH 
GRO Reference: 1849  M Quarter in ST GILES IN THE FIELDS & ST GEORGE BLOOMSBURY  Volume 01  Page 63

Is there a death/burial for him in St Giles?

Hi Jonwarrn,

thanks for your response. After the wonderful contributions yesterday from the good folk of Rootschat I was able to find an 1841 Census featuring 'Edward Da Darcy' learning his shoemaking trade in Brick Lane, Whitechapel, Middlesex on 'Ancestry'. I had seen it before but the DOB (1821) looked a bit 'iffy'. However, as none of the ages match up on the 5 census records and Death Reg I am willing to believe it is correct. This coupled with all the other discrepancies on the census records lead me to believe he either had a very strong accent that was difficult to understand, or that he deliberately was obfuscating. I think due to other circumstances of his life, the latter is probably true. His second 'wife' Joanna was apparently either his cousin (or some have suggested, but I have not been able to corroborate) his niece.

The further information then opened the door to a possible marriage in Ireland from 1842:

Name:   Edmond Day
Gender:   Male
Event Type:   Marriage
Marriage Date:   2 Jul 1842
Marriage Place:   Imogeela, Ireland, Ireland
Residence Place:   C Martyn
Parish Variant:s   Castlemartyr
Diocese:   Cloyne
Spouse:   Mary Walsh

I have found a death registration for a Mary Walsh which looks about the right age. I cant lay my fingers on it right now, but I think it was about 1864, with an estimated birth year of 1821 which is about right. Joanna's first child appears to be Frank 'Francis' Henry D'arcy in 1866, so that could work.

I hadn't seen that William reg. before, but it looks a possibility and worth checking out, thank you.

B

[JenB]

I was able to find an 1841 Census featuring 'Edward Da Darcy' learning his shoemaking trade in Brick Lane, Whitechapel, Middlesex on 'Ancestry'. I had seen it before but the DOB (1821) looked a bit 'iffy'.

Don't forget that in the 1841 census the ages of over 15 years olds were rounded down to the nearest five years.

So someone entered as 20 years old could in fact have been 24 years old.