Altering Original Parish Register of Marriages

[viddavid]

In 2007 I purchased a certified copy of a Parish entry of marriage from the GRO. Parts of the copy were not legible. I queried this with Certificate Services. They responded "In column 7 in our records a pencil notation reads 'christian name not known' " After consultation with *** Registrar it would appear that the same pencil notation also appears on there (sic) record, however also entered is the name "***" it may be that the grooms forename was *** but we cannot confirm this.

2025 The marriage entry from 1898 as it appears on Ancestry.com has had the pencil note removed grooms fathers name inserted with darker lettering and an obvious spelling error in the original has been corrected.

I find this very concerning.   
   

[Tickettyboo]

The civil records consist of the local registrars register and the copy they send to the GRO. The public do not have any access to registers held either locally or at the GRO
I can't see either a local registrar or anyone at the GRO making an alteration such as you describe without clearly marking it as such and recording their initials which would now be seen on any copy they issue.

You said you got this cert from the GRO and that the local Registrar confirms their register is exactly the same.

So . . the alteration has come from the third marriage register, the one held at the time at the church where the marriage took place. That register would eventually be deposited at the local archives - which is likely to be the source of the image you see on ancestry.

At one time many, many years ago the only access to Parish Registers was to visit the church and ask permission to see them. I have heard lots of tales about people who visited, were given unsupervised access and then tore out the page that they'd been looking for ! Others made notes on the registers, so its not beyond the realms of possibilty that this 'alteration' was done by someone looking into their family history.

I suppose that there 'may' be a very remote chance that the local vicar/ parish clerk made the alteration in the church register years later, but I doubt it.

Boo

[LizzieL]

2025 The marriage entry from 1898 as it appears on Ancestry.com has had the pencil note removed grooms fathers name inserted with darker lettering and an obvious spelling error in the original has been corrected.

I find this very concerning.   
 

The image you have seen on Ancestry. Is it from the record images they hold or is it attached to someone's tree on Ancestry? 
I have seen a birth certificate on someone's tree on Ancestry where after the father's name, his date and place of birth were written. The birth was in London in the 19th century, so this additional information would never have appeared on the original certificate as supplied to the tree owner by the GRO. They had then annotated with what they thought were the father's details, but anyone unfamiliar with what should appear on an E/W birth cert could easily be misled into thinking all the information they saw was genuinely the original certificate

[viddavid]

Thank you Ticketyboo and LizzieL
What I need to know is which version is correct. Was the 2007 "copy" mis transcribed ? The response to the query "a pencil notation appears on there record christian name not known" Is that a copy of the Church register ? They suggest a name as maybe the grooms forename.
 On the "original" image on Ancestry that name is clearly written  in different ink as the grooms fathers name.
 The record image on Ancestry is from the Register of Marriages book ie. the one signed by all parties at the time of the marriage. That must be the original from which copies have been made. It is very clear now so has it been altered. If I apply to the GRO for the same copy where will they get the original to copy from ?

[Deirdre784]

Any record you get from the GRO is not from the parish register. The parish (church) registers are for baptisms, marriages and burials. The GRO records are the official births, marriages and deaths as provided to them by the local registration offices. If any certificates are attached to someone’s tree as an image, then they could have been ‘altered’ by the owner. 

[viddavid]

Thankyou Deirdre784. I applied for the document using the GRO Index of Marriages. The copy I received from the GRO is a certified copy of an entry of marriage given at the GRO. Certified to be a true copy of an entry in the certified copy of a register of Marriages in the Registration District of ***.
The image on Ancestry ( not attached to a tree ) is of the original entry from the Parish Register. The headings including reference numbers on the Parish register are the same as those on the certified copy. If the information from the GRO is not from the original Parish register where does the local registration office get that information come from ?   

 

[rosie99]

If the information from the GRO is not from the original Parish register where does the local registration office get that information come from ?   

It is a transcript from the original church register so subject to errors and omissions and is submitted by the church to the registrar

[AntonyMMM]

For most church marriages the answer is that there is more than one "original" record.

A church authorised to register marriages ( mainly CofE up to 1898)  was required to keep two registers.

Register A (the civil register) ...when full this would eventually be deposited with the Supt Registrar of the district. If you order a certificate from the local registration office it would come from this copy.

Register B (the church register) ... usually in exactly the same format as the civil register, although it didn't have to be. This one would usually end up in the local archives ( and from there images are made available by on-line sites like Ancestry).

In addition, every quarter (or sometimes more often), the vicar would have to copy out the details of marriages conducted in the parish onto yet another version ( i.e. Copy C) and submit those to the General Register Office ......those are the ones that GRO use to provide a certificate from.

In an ideal world all three versions, A B & C should be identical - most vicars would complete registers A & B at the same time during the ceremony and get the parties to sign the entries in both - one I saw recently even got the couple to sign his quarterly return version (i.e C) at the time of the ceremony too.

Any later correction or alteration would have to first be made on the church register   and then an updated copy sent to GRO via the local registration office so that those copies could be updated to keep "in sync". However it does rely on everyone following the rules ( which many vicars didn't) and so it is easy to see how they could vary.

Non-conformist, and register office, marriages just used a single register so have a different process again.

In the circumstances described in the original post, you would probably need to have a certificate from GRO, another supplied from the local registration office and also the image from the parish regsiter and compare all three to even try and work out what might have happened (and when).

[viddavid]

Thank you rosie99 and AntonyMMM this highlights not relying on transcripts and always seek out originals.* From AntonyMMM post the least reliable information is from the GRO. "Register B (the church register)" has to be an original. Signed by their own hand by all present at the marriage. "Register A(the civil register)"  "most vicars would complete registers A&B at the same time during the ceremony" Therefore that is another separate original document. Register 'C' a copy of A or B  is the transcript the GRO depend on. From the original post the GRO records were confirmed by the local registration office to have the same pencilled notes. "any alteration would have to first be made on the parish record..." An alteration has been made. It's different ink. Hence the later pencilled notations on the copies. I think you have solved the mystery.* I should point out that originals, like in this case , are not always factually correct.