Erskine family of Port Glasgow

[gervaise]

Thanks Forfarian  The couple you mention (William and Jean Irvine) are not my ancestors because that William was a labourer and mine was a schoolmaster (there were not many labourers emigrating from Ireland until they were needed for the iron works and coal mines later in the century).


Also the children's names don't match up I have:

Jane Irwin b 1826
Olivia Mary Smith Irwin b.1833
Sussannah b. 1836
William Erskine Irwin b. 1839 (We don't know what happened to him as he was not in the 1841 Census)
Cecilia Irvine b. 1841 (It says in the Church Register her parents were George Irvine and Jane Erskine but they were living at the same address as in the 1841 Census -Quay Lane No. 7 Paisley
Cecilia was my g.g.grandmother and she is definately a sister to the others as I dna match with descendants of Jane Irwin and Olivia Irwin .

Olivia,Sussannah and William were baptised by the Episcopal Church in Greenock and Cecilia by the Holy Trinity Episcopal Church Paisley.
The original Registers are still at these Churches.
It is possible that William was sent back to Ireland as a relative descended from Jane whose branch moved back from Australia and stayed there went to a family event there as a child in the 1940s but could not remember details.
Jane,Sussannah and Cecilia all emigrated to Australia in the 1850s and Olivia married a Thomas Bald and moved around Scotland and England. Jane's husband William Leonard was an Iron Works manager and they went back with their two youngest children so he could work in Coatbridge. Only their son Henry stayed and had a family there. In the 1851 Census Jane was living at Dundyvan near Coatbridge supporting her two younger siblings as a teacher and dressmaker. Her father had died at Coatbridge but we don't know what year b/w. 1841 and 1851.

Yes I should order the 1855 certificate for Mary Erskine b. 1821 even though her descendant is convinced by dna matches and records that he has the right parents. If  Mary's father is dead though it might not mention his profession.

[Forfarian]

Yes I should order the 1855 certificate for Mary Erskine b. 1821 even though her descendant is convinced by dna matches and records that he has the right parents. If  Mary's father is dead though it might not mention his profession.

A Scottish death certificate gives the same information about deceased parents as it does of living ones, so it normally gives the deceased's father's occupation.

See https://www.scotlandsgenealogy.com/blog/scottish-death-certificate-information (which is not 100% correct but close enough)

Cecilia Irvine b. 1841 (It says in the Church Register her parents were George Irvine and Jane Erskine but they were living at the same address as in the 1841 Census -Quay Lane No. 7 Paisley

If you are reading something significant into the surname being recorded as Irvine instead of Irwin, don't. Spelling was a very variable concept, and spelling it Irvine instead of Irwin just means that one clerk had a different notion of how to write it down.

The only sure way to pick up all the variant spellings is to use wildcards in the search - ir*n* will pick up Irwin, Irvine, Irving and their variants. It will also pick up some obviously unrelated names, for example Ireland and Irfan, but it's easy enough to discount them. (I see that one enterprising couple spells it Irbhinn, using the Gaelic spelling convention that 'bh' is pronounced as English 'v' or German 'w'.)

[hannahjgervaise]

Forfarian, Yes sometimes the surname is recorded as Irvine but what I wonder about is why was the father of Cecilia called George when everywhere else he was recorded as William. Maybe the minister used his real first name but William preferred his second Christian name. I believe he came from a middle class family to become a school master at that time and they were more likely to have two first names. Two of the girls came to Australia under the surname Irwing so that was another variation.

[Forfarian]

Forfarian, Yes sometimes the surname is recorded as Irvine but what I wonder about is why was the father of Cecilia called George when everywhere else he was recorded as William. Maybe the minister used his real first name but William preferred his second Christian name. I believe he came from a middle class family to become a school master at that time and they were more likely to have two first names. Two of the girls came to Australia under the surname Irwing so that was another variation.

Middle names are pretty rare that far back, and when bestowed they are usually the surname of an older generation - more likely the clerk made a mistake.

[gervaise]

Forfarian, I have just found out that a relative got a transcript for the Baillie marriage that occured in 1854 but was registered on July 5 1855. It does not mention parents so maybe I have to get a full Certificate if available.

The middle class in the early 1800s did tend to have middle names as the working class were not permitted until around 1850. William's daughter b 1833 had three first names Olivia Mary Smith Bald (Irwin) and her brother b. 1839 William Erskine Irwin but unfortunately the others probably had them but they did not use them on documents. I only found Olivia's on her English death certificate which are normally useless for information but in the index it said Olivia Mary S. Bald. Imagine my disappointment when I found the name Smith. Even in Scotland and Ireland there are many Smiths.

I did find a Register that included Port Glasgow Episcopalians at the Mitchell Library from a list an Archivist gave me at The National Archives that was not listed online. William and Jane were not in it but I found out that there were records held at the Greenock Church and Paisley.

[Forfarian]

Forfarian, I have just found out that a relative got a transcript for the Baillie marriage that occured in 1854 but was registered on July 5 1855. It does not mention parents so maybe I have to get a full Certificate if available.

Yes, you do.

The middle class in the early 1800s did tend to have middle names as the working class were not permitted until around 1850.

News to me. Where did you find that?

[gervaise]

I read it in a history book.

[Forfarian]

Ah.

I have also read that there was an ancient law reserving middle names for the nobility, but this was in England and would therefore not have applied in Scotland.

Also, while there are many web sites that state this as a fact, I have yet to find any credible source at all that quotes chapter and verse of when this law was passed and when it was repealed.

So I'd be very pleased to hear from anyone who can tell me more about this topic.

I have also read that, in Scotland, the churches recognised only the first given name as valid, and therefore middle names often tended not be recorded, if indeed they were bestowed at all, until the start of civil registration in 1855. Even after that, it is surprising how often people acquire in later life a middle name that is not on their birth certificate.

Again, I'd be very interesting in some more solid evidence to support or refute this assertion.

[hannahjgervaise]

Yes I would have read middle names were reserved for the middle classes in an English history book. I  don't have any primary evidence that it was law.

I believe my Irwin/Erskine family all had second names even though only two of the five children's were officially recorded. It is possible they descended from minor gentry and my two aunts dna match descendants of someone who married into the French royal family who was either Scottish or French.

I don't know if Episcopal Ministers typically only recorded one first name just that they did for this family except for the son.