Author Topic: Alice Tietkens help/interpretations  (Read 2434 times)

Offline ambrat666

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Re: Alice Tietkens help/interpretations
« Reply #18 on: Sunday 19 January 25 03:52 GMT (UK) »
@sparett

Yes interstitial keratitis can manifest for many reasons. But when I'm hearing hooves I'll say horses, not Zebras for now.

I suppose I'm looking for opinions or help either way, as it's all unverified. That's the problem. There's no actual proof of Alice's parentage either way (paternal and maternal). It makes starting anywhere very difficult. She is a 'brick wall'.

As mentioned by someone earlier, from her paper trail it looks way more like she originated in WA, and all I have to dispute that is the fact it's been passed down through oral history that she was raised at the Yalata Homestead where she was then somehow acquired by the Voakes (who later left Alice money, as mentioned above).

I spent a while researching Tietkens, as I figured he would be the best place to start given he was a well documented man back then (by comparison). Over the decades our family have procured his journals from his expeditions (both from him as well as other men he was accompanied by) and various correspondence letters to try finding any proof of him ever travelling with a 'companion', infant, or perhaps evidence of him sponsoring an Aboriginal child.

Neville Collins actually wrote a book about him (published 2016) to which one of my family members reached out about the possibility of him fathering an illegitimate child, which was seemingly dismissed (it is mentioned at the end of the book, but I do not have it anymore).

I myself thought it was strange nobody ever journaled, detailed, photographed or mentioned Tietkens as being one of the many (both) documented and undocumented men who had Aboriginal partners or fathered Aboriginal children back then. Furthermore, I find it odd that someone who had researched Tietkens so closely (Neville Collins) would dismiss the possibility of an illegitimate child if they ever found anything hinting toward that. I don't right now know what further steps I could take to access any existing restricted material about him or the area (Yalata, Fowler's Bay, Wookata, Coorabie) without going there (which is not an option right at this minute). Any suggestions?

I additionally tried to explore the Thomas Timkins name (as that's the father's name given on her marriage certificate) but I couldn't find a good match. If she knew her father was William Harry Tietkens, why put something as random as Thomas Timkins...? So many confusing questions that to me, point toward her just having absolutely no idea about when, where or to whom she was born.

But, I urge you to consider that Aboriginal people were heavily neglected and controlled at this time. It was not uncommon for Aboriginal people to be told they were an estimated age when it was not verifiable or correct just so the person documenting could put something down. This is what I have attributed her more recent hospital documents to (because if you didn't know when you were born or how old you were, at some point you're just going to have to pick).

Where would you recommend taking the course of this research? I fear I'm overcomplicating things by exploring leads with no proof, but it doesn't seem I can find legitimate evidence anymore. I appreciate your help and insight, thanks

Amber


Offline ambrat666

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Re: Alice Tietkens help/interpretations
« Reply #19 on: Sunday 19 January 25 04:08 GMT (UK) »
I'll just add that I am descended from Alice through one of her 11 children. Alice was well known to her community, delivering babies along the south-west coast. I recall a story about her delivering a child for a Pastor Simmons/Simmonds but that's just about it (in regard to her life, what she did, etc).

Offline sparrett

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Re: Alice Tietkens help/interpretations
« Reply #20 on: Sunday 19 January 25 05:07 GMT (UK) »
Your searching has been remarkable. Far reaching indeed and disappointing for you when there is nothing definitive.

As mentioned, from 1896 birth certificates in Western Australia gave the place of birth for the mother.

Looking at some of these would perhaps give answers about the origins of this Alice.

Sue
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Offline Neale1961

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Re: Alice Tietkens help/interpretations
« Reply #21 on: Sunday 19 January 25 07:18 GMT (UK) »
Yes, I concur that you have being doing some detailed research.

I agree that the age on the marriage certificate is 25 and not 15.

Also agree that looking at some birth certificates for Alice’s children might be useful.

Did you look closely at any of the men who accompanied Tietkens on his explorations, to see if there is a link to the Hauxwell family name? I would also look in more detail at any of his men named Thomas.
Milligan - Jardine – Glencross – Dinwoodie - Brown: (Dumfriesshire & Kirkcudbrightshire)
Clark – Faulds – Cuthbertson – Bryson – Wilson: (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire)
Neale – Cater – Kinder - Harrison: (Warwickshire & Queensland)
Roberts - Spry: (Cornwall, Middlesex & Queensland)
Munster: (Schleswig-Holstein & Queensland) and Plate: (Braunschweig, Neubruck & Queensland & New York)


Offline ambrat666

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Re: Alice Tietkens help/interpretations
« Reply #22 on: Sunday 19 January 25 08:13 GMT (UK) »
I've really done nothing compared to my elders (who have journeyed out to the south-west coast), everyone before me has done the real research. I've just tried to make some sense of what's here. When I first started I figured DNA would be the key but as an amateur there's only so much I can explain with that.

I have just come across a member on Ancestry.com who seems to have attempted to digitalise some marriage and birth record details for Western Australia. It is very confusing. They have uploaded a profile for ALICE TIMKINS (b.1886) married to CHARLES EDWARDS GURNEY (b.1881) at Esperance 1906, in a tree called 'WA MARR BIR 03'. This could mean 1903, the year their first child was born.

I am thinking this could be someone who has access to marriage and birth records from Western Australia and these are details for their first born. I have attempted to make contact with the profile that owns this tree, but they have not been active in over a year. I have attached a photo with the tree highlighted for interpretations.

If that is true (which it still may not be, I need to verify), they have still listed Alice's age differently (notably younger than Charles). If they knew her age back then, what would have stopped them from just putting the same year (+/-) as her husband?

ADDED - Link to tree (hopefully it works): https://www.ancestry.com.au/family-tree/tree/3054134?cfpid=-1781752300&dtid=100

Tietkens went on many expeditions and I have *tried* to see if any contained a Thomas or Timkins but seemingly no luck. He was accompanied by some Aboriginal trackers but I have not been able to tie those men to any Mary or Alices that I think could fit. But I admittedly could keep exploring those as potential leads...

However the Thomas thing really throws me off because from what I have tried to track back, nobody recalls being told that Alice actually knew her father's name to be Thomas... But I would agree that's what's on her marriage certificate...!

Offline bbart

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Re: Alice Tietkens help/interpretations
« Reply #23 on: Sunday 19 January 25 08:18 GMT (UK) »
I do see this will where Emily Dinah Voake, widow, leaves 50 pounds to Alice
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHK-TQTK-BBCQ-D?view=fullText&keywords=Charles%20Edward%2CGurney&groupId=TH-7795-131997-46293-7

This might be a wild goose chase, but I am short on time, and will be off for a few days, so I am posting my notes in case it can be followed up on to tie all these people together somehow.  Sorry my notes are a bit scattered:

The above quoted Emily Dinah Voake was married to William Paul Voake. (Full name found in several of her annual newspaper memorials to him). William was a farmer, but did go on at least one exploration.

It does not appear that Emily and William Voake had any children of their own.
In Emily's will, she also left part of her assets to Frederick Eli Mason.  Frederick's WW1 service document lists Dinah Voake of Fowler's Bay as next of kin, and indicates she is his aunt.

Emily's husband William went on an expedition with explorer Richard Thelwell/Thilwell Maurice.  Depending on where you look, William's surname was spelled Voake, or Voke.
Richard Maurice named a hill after him, Vokes Hill in 1901.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vokes_Hill_Corner_to_Cook_Road

There is a huge article on Richard Maurice, mentioning Voakes, and also a mention of Tietkins:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/161769847?searchTerm=voakes
I can't tell if Voake went on with Tietkins or not, by the way it is written.

The surveyor that accompanied Richard Maurice was a W.R Murray.  Could this be the head or  relation to the Murray family at Yalata that took Alice in as a child?

Random clip of Maurice and Voake:
https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-observer-voake/163394951/

More on Maurice
https://www.samemory.sa.gov.au/site/page.cfm?u=218

My current thinking is that Alice got the "father's occupation as explorer" (if that is what the marriage document really says) correct, but didn't get the name right.  I am thinking that a lot of these explorers knew each other, and if one fathered a child, and with Emily D. Voake having no children, she gladly took Alice in.





Offline ambrat666

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Re: Alice Tietkens help/interpretations
« Reply #24 on: Sunday 19 January 25 09:09 GMT (UK) »
@bbart

That's an interesting take! I researched Maurice briefly when I came across information that Voake was employed by him on expeditions, and Maurice became known as 'the unknown explorer' which is what I was told was on Alice's marriage certificate (that might just be me remembering wrong or being told a simplified version).

When I looked into him initially I was fixated on Yalata and Fowler's Bay in 1881 (being the year I thought Alice was born if her age is 25 on the marriage certificate) but I believe he was ill in the Kimberly goldfields, not arriving at Fowler's Bay until mid 1880's. I thought that if he'd NOT spent any time that way prior to mid 1880s, there's not much chance of him being or having knowledge of Alices father... It's definitely all worth another look though.

I will definitely be looking into surveyor W.R Murray though, as this may at least be able to shed some light on how the Voakes acquired Alice... The owner of the Yalata Homestead was Mr G.W Murray.

I believe you are right in saying a lot of the explorers were probably acquainted. It could be worth me looking into some of Maurice's journals.

I appreciate the help and added perspective. 

Offline sparrett

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Re: Alice Tietkens help/interpretations
« Reply #25 on: Monday 20 January 25 00:13 GMT (UK) »
Just adding a note here which  I am certain you have already employed as a technique.

But remember to include the spelling HAWKSWELL in search variations.

Sue

Please provide a link to the Ancestry post you have imaged in reply#22
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Offline ambrat666

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Re: Alice Tietkens help/interpretations
« Reply #26 on: Monday 20 January 25 01:01 GMT (UK) »
@sparrett

I have added the link to reply #22, if that link does not work I can try other ways.

Thank you, I have done some looking with spelling variations, I think I may have even seen John's grandfather use the HAWKSWELL spelling.

I am very caught up on the fact that both the consent parts of their marriage certificate have been crossed out. This would have to allude to either them BOTH being of age, or related to the 'Aborigines Act' that was introduced 1905 but did not come into effect until April of 1906. This does explicitly state (section 42) that an Aboriginal woman is only permitted to marry another Aboriginal man without the 'permission, in writing, of the Chief Protector'. Doesn't this mean they would need permission from 'the protector' regardless of her age? I think it's something I will have to dive deeper into