Author Topic: Alice Tietkens help/interpretations  (Read 2449 times)

Offline ambrat666

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Alice Tietkens help/interpretations
« on: Friday 17 January 25 10:26 GMT (UK) »
Hi everyone,

I have a complex genealogical mystery and would greatly appreciate any assistance in researching my ancestor Alice Gurney (née Tietkens/Timkins).

Alice was a half-Aboriginal woman born to a European father and an Indigenous mother, but her exact birth details remain unknown. The earliest records I have found are the births of her first two children in Balladonia and her marriage to Charles Edward Gurney in Esperance in 1906. Family lore states that Alice was 25 at marriage, but I believe the certificate actually says she was 15, placing her birth around 1889-1890. This would mean she was just 12-13 when her first child was born—an uncomfortable but not impossible reality. Would she and Charles have been able to marry without obtaining permission from the Western Australian 'Protector of Aborigines'? Could any additional records—such as birth or marriage documents—help clarify her true age?

Alice’s parentage has been a long-debated topic. It was always believed she was the illegitimate daughter of explorer William Harry Tietkens and an Aboriginal girl named Mary/Mary Ann, who allegedly died in childbirth. Alice was reportedly taken in by the Murray family at Yalata Homestead before being placed with the Voakes family of Fowlers Bay/Coorabie, possibly for domestic duties or sponsorship. Unfortunately, no official documentation confirms this—though a captioned Daisy Bates photograph does mention the Murrays raising half-Aboriginal girls, lending some credibility to the story.

However, recent DNA research has challenged this family history. A UK-based Ancestry.com tree lists John Hauxwell as Alice’s father. While the tree’s owner cannot recall the exact source, I have confirmed DNA matches with Hauxwell’s descendants—yet none linking me to Tietkens. This led me to investigate Hauxwell further, and I found a compelling clue: an 1890 Adelaide hospital admission record. John Hauxwell appears as patient No. 3, while a woman named Mary Ann from Fowlers Bay is listed as No. 9. Further scrutiny suggests Mary Ann and another Aboriginal woman, Lizzie Miller (identified as A.B.L.), were likely sent to the hospital by the ‘Protector of Aborigines’ and may have arrived via steamship.

If this Mary Ann is indeed Alice’s mother, then this hospital admission would be the first real proof that she and John Hauxwell were in the same place at the same time—potentially leading to Alice’s conception later that year. The timing aligns with Alice’s suspected birth around 1889-1890, making this the strongest evidence yet that Hauxwell, not Tietkens, was her biological father. However, I am still struggling to verify whether any direct interaction between them occurred in the hospital. Would there be any surviving records—such as patient details, treatment notes, or government correspondence—that could shed light on this possibility?

Tracking Mary Ann beyond this record has been frustrating. I have searched coroners’ reports, prison records, and destitute children’s records for any trace of a Mary Ann (born around 1874) in South Australia but have found no clear matches. If anyone has insight into potential sources that might document her fate or link her to Alice, I’d be incredibly grateful.

Adding another layer of confusion, I still question where Tietkens fits into this. He was married to Mary Ann Long, who died in November 1890—the exact time our Mary was said to have died. However, newspapers list his wife’s age at death as 44, and she had a daughter, Emily, who appears fully European. Could there have been some mix-up in oral family history, or is there another missing piece to this puzzle?

I would deeply appreciate any help in researching Alice, her mother Mary, or any additional proof regarding the hospital connection between John Hauxwell and Mary Ann. Thank you for your time, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Amber

Offline Jebber

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Re: Alice Tietkens help/interpretations
« Reply #1 on: Friday 17 January 25 15:37 GMT (UK) »
Welcome to RootsChat.

Not something I can help with, just bumping it up the board in the hope it will attract the attention of someone who can help.
CHOULES All ,  COKER Harwich Essex & Rochester Kent 
COLE Gt. Oakley, & Lt. Oakley, Essex.
DUNCAN Kent
EVERITT Colchester,  Dovercourt & Harwich Essex
GULLIVER/GULLOFER Fifehead Magdalen Dorset
HORSCROFT Kent.
KING Sturminster Newton, Dorset. MONK Odiham Ham.
SCOTT Wrabness, Essex
WILKINS Stour Provost, Dorset.
WICKHAM All in North Essex.
WICKHAM Medway Towns, Kent from 1880
WICKHAM, Ipswich, Suffolk.

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Re: Alice Tietkens help/interpretations
« Reply #2 on: Friday 17 January 25 18:01 GMT (UK) »
I know little of Antipodean doings or records, but if the DNA matches are to the Hauxwells, then why is there an issue. Isn't that dispositive?
BRENNANx2 Davidstown&Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh&Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee&Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough&Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson&Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry&Oulart;WALSH Kilrane&Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline ambrat666

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Re: Alice Tietkens help/interpretations
« Reply #3 on: Friday 17 January 25 19:56 GMT (UK) »
@wexflyer
Family who have pioneered the research before me argue the DNA connection 'could' work a lot of different ways and I can't technically (yet) dismiss that. I can't prove where the connection is, nor do I really understand how anyone from the UK could have known that information without anyone knowing over here in Australia (given my family has travelled far, wide and remote for answers).  ???

How could I prove or disprove that the connection is through Alice?


Offline jorose

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Re: Alice Tietkens help/interpretations
« Reply #4 on: Friday 17 January 25 23:45 GMT (UK) »
As a start, do you have a copy of the marriage certificate and at least one of the birth certificates from when they were in WA? This should give you some data points on her reported age, at least.


Do you understand the timeline of how she went or was sent from SA to WA?
I see there are children 1902 to 1910 on the WA indexes, and then the Gurney's moved to SA.  What records do you have that confirm she was born in SA? It seems more likely she was born WA and moved back to SA with her husband.


I do see this will where Emily Dinah Voake, widow, leaves 50 pounds to Alice
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHK-TQTK-BBCQ-D?view=fullText&keywords=Charles%20Edward%2CGurney&groupId=TH-7795-131997-46293-7

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/169289652?searchTerm=Voake%20Gurney
 - Alice is probably also the Gurney Emily mentions here

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/168241566?searchTerm=Voake
 - and it seems she placed a notice for Alice's

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHJ-ZQPH-B6XB?view=fullText&keywords=William%20Paul%20Voake%2CAUSTRALIA%2CAustralia&groupId=TH-7761-128809-2464-88
 - and they were connected to Yalata.


At https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/SearchScreens/BasicSearch.aspx there is also a index card for Alice Gurney under D4770 which is apparently an index to those exempted from the provisions of the Aborigines Act (SA).  Do you have this record? It might be a clue to further records about her.



Going back to the Hauxwell connection - the more people you can get to test, the better.  You can prove out your hypothesis by demonstrating a pattern of matches (and lack of matches).

To give a simple example, let's say that you descend from Alice through your mother's side.  If your theory is correct, cousins you have on your mother's side who also descend from Alice should have matches to you, and to the Hauxwells, whereas cousins you have on your father's side will match with you, but not to the Hauxwells.

By triangulating all the matches you have in terms of those that also match the Hauxwell lines, and those that don't, then you can determine where on your tree this match most likely originated.


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Offline ambrat666

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Re: Alice Tietkens help/interpretations
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 18 January 25 03:13 GMT (UK) »
@jorose,

There is no KNOWN documentation to us that records Alice before the birth of her children and marriage, it is all oral history. We have her marriage certificate but I do not know how about the birth certificates. It's coming down to the issue that many of us are not well connected or have much contact. Given Charlie (her second born, first son) died at 21 I don't believe there are any descendants of him, so I will try to contact May's descendants.

The problem with the marriage certificate is that the ages are somewhat unintelligible. I will attach a screenshot for reference. Initially upon first looking at it I thought it said 20 for Charlie (top row), and 15 for Alice (bottom row). When I went to confirm this with a family member, they informed me it's actually 24 and 25... I could see how the 24 could have been mistaken as 20, but not with Alice's given age. I would also argue a 24 year old European man with a 15 year old Indigenous girl was nowhere near uncommon for that time period. What are your thoughts?

I will attempt doing that form of triangulation, with some process of elimination. The closest descendants we have for Alice are a grandchild who has DNA tested, but I believe most other grandchildren are deceased (I will need to double check that).

I believe we have most the information you have provided about her relationship with the Voakes and her Aboriginality exemption. It always stood out to me that Emily Dinah Voake left her a good sum of money because the story was that Alice and Charlie ran away from Fowler's Bay to get married. That gave me the impression that they did not speak ever again, but it seems they had a somewhat amicable relationship (additionally supported by the fact Emily Dinah spoke at Alice's sons funeral). It has been said that Alice was at the Voakes with another boy which I believe is the E.P Hughes mentioned in Emily Dinah's will.

I have however read some things about Emily Dinah's husband, William Paul Voake, giving me the impression he wasn't a very nice man. I have a theory that Charlie took Alice to run away from Paul. However this is completely unproven and just me trying to make sense of all the information. 

It is worth noting that there are many Gurney 'branches' along the west and south-west coast. I believe that is a possible reason why Charlie and Alice went over there from Fowlers Bay, because he had family out that way (especially remote where perhaps less questions were asked).

I am more interested about whether there is a way I could prove that the Mary Ann I mentioned is Alices mother. I understand it could very well be impossible to prove via historical documentation but I just figured I'd ask.

Thank you for your help.


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Re: Alice Tietkens help/interpretations
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 18 January 25 03:19 GMT (UK) »
I would agree that the ages are 20 and 15
BRENNANx2 Davidstown&Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh&Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee&Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough&Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson&Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry&Oulart;WALSH Kilrane&Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline ambrat666

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Re: Alice Tietkens help/interpretations
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 18 January 25 03:32 GMT (UK) »
I will attach a photo of the hospital record here. I have done a small amount of research for interstitial keratitis and believe it is syphilis related.

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Re: Alice Tietkens help/interpretations
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 18 January 25 03:39 GMT (UK) »
How accurately would these people have known their own ages? Seriously. Ages on Irish BMD records in this same period are commonly way, way off.
BRENNANx2 Davidstown&Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh&Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee&Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough&Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson&Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry&Oulart;WALSH Kilrane&Wex; WHITE Tagoat area