Mixed C of I Catholic wedding late 1800s?

[Elwyn Soutter]

Marriages could only be solemnized in C of I or Presbyterian Churches until Autumn 1863 prior to the Marriage Law (Ireland) Amendment Act, 1863 [8th June], Methodist and many of the Presbyterian variations required the presence of a Registrar and a Marriage Licence and were recorded in the Registrar's books.

Very interesting post. Thank you,

I am not so sure about the need for a Registrar to attend early Methodist marriages. I have seen quite a few where the Registrar was not present. Donegall Square Methodist church has marriages from 1835 onwards, which is 10 years before Registrars were first appointed.

According to Rev Robin Roddie (Edgehill Theological College historian) the problems the Methodists faced, apart from a lingering wish to retain their links with the Church of Ireland, was that many of their Meeting Houses were not licensed for marriage and also a shortage of qualified Ministers. (Methodism relied heavily on lay preachers).

[Jon_ni]

I am not so sure about the need for a Registrar to attend early Methodist marriages

Elwyn
They were only able to apply and receive a pair of Marriage Books after the 1863 Act. I'm presuming this one https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1863/act/27/enacted/en/print.html under clause 12 Registration of places of public worship on application of trustee, &c. That, the original 1844 Act and the 1870/71 Acts don't appear on Legislation gov uk as have been incorporated in / replaced by subsequent ones. Google doesn't produce the one mentioned below by the MHS of I.

The development of the General Register Office of Ireland http://www.histpop.org/ohpr/servlet/View?path=Browse/Essays&mno=2004 states "Throughout the latter part of the nineteenth century and the early twentieth century additional legislation was introduced which had implications for the registration system. For example, the Marriage Law (Ireland) Amendment Act 1863 (26 & 27 Vict., c.27) dispensed with the need for registrars to attend marriages in Protestant Dissenting Churches, and other Christian denominations, and provided for the registration of such marriages by the celebrant."

Home / Irish Methodist Baptismal and Marriage Records > Marriage Records
Methodist preaching houses or chapels were not formally licenced for marriage until after the ‘Registered Separate Buildings’ Act of August 1863. Prior to that, from 1845, it was possible to conduct a marriage in a Methodist chapel but only in the presence of a District Registrar who entered the record of the marriage into the Superintendent’s Registrar’s book and retained the record and not the local minister.
After 1863 when Methodist buildings in Ireland were licenced for marriages the records were held by the local Methodist church. The information recorded is the same as appears in civil marriage records... the name of the minister who celebrated the marriage is also recorded.
https://methodisthistoryireland.org/irish-methodist-baptismal-and-marriage-records/

Donegall Square Methodist may have kept their own record of marriages in much the same way as R.C churches did pre & post 1864.

The 1st marriage by the useages of the Methodist Church in Donegall Sq East Wesleyan Methodist
photo https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=881208504103039&id=100066416921231
now the Ulster Bank https://www.geograph.ie/photo/383985

was on 9 Nov 1863 under GRONI church code 736 book 1 entry 1 M/1863/B1/736/1/1 all previous are under /570/ Belfast Registrar Office or Registrar attended.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1863/09645/5497946.pdf
Married in the above Registered Building according to the useages of the Wesleyan Methodist Church, by Licence.

for comparison here is 17 Sep 1862 M/1862/B1/570/29/252
Married in the above Registered building under the Provisions of the Act 7 & 8 Vic Cap 81, by Licence
Performed by the Registrar with the Officiating Minister Joseph McKay signing as a Witness.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1862/09625/5490685.pdf

Registered Building confuses the issue, the wording afterwards that matters, they were performed under the civil provisions of the 1844/5 Marriage Act with the Registrar present issuing any legal copies desired by the bride & groom.

College Street South Reformed Presbyterian 25 Nov 1862 M/1862/B1/570/29/283 https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1862/09625/5490695.pdf
vs 13 May 1864 M/1863/B1/780/1/3  https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1864/11607/8272429.pdf

Under the original Marriages (Ireland) Act 1844 paragraphs LXIII & LXIV only C of I, Presbyterian, Quaker & Jewish venues were to be provided with duplicate books in which to record their marriages.
https://www.legislation.ie/eli/1844/act/81/section/63/enacted/en/html
http://www.histpop.org/ohpr/servlet/View?path=Browse/Legislation%20(by%20date)&active=yes&mno=4047

Whilst Banbridge Remonstrant (N.S.) Presby aka 1st (N.S.) Presby Banbridge was issued with books 1846 as was First Dromore Remonstrant (N.S.) Presby the Reformed Presby churches + Baptists also only got theirs late 1863/64.

[Wexflyer]

 ... the original 1844 Act and the 1870/71 Acts don't appear on Legislation gov uk as have been incorporated in / replaced by subsequent ones.

The full text of the 1844 Marriages Ireland Act is available here
https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1844/act/81/enacted/en/print.html

As an aside, one of the main reasons, maybe the principal reason, the 1844 Act did not cover Catholic marriages is that the Catholic clergy were worried that civil registration would provide legal evidence to convict them of performing illegal mixed marriages.

[Elwyn Soutter]

Home / Irish Methodist Baptismal and Marriage Records > Marriage Records
Methodist preaching houses or chapels were not formally licenced for marriage until after the ‘Registered Separate Buildings’ Act of August 1863. Prior to that, from 1845, it was possible to conduct a marriage in a Methodist chapel but only in the presence of a District Registrar who entered the record of the marriage into the Superintendent’s Registrar’s book and retained the record and not the local minister.

After 1863 when Methodist buildings in Ireland were licenced for marriages the records were held by the local Methodist church. The information recorded is the same as appears in civil marriage records... the name of the minister who celebrated the marriage is also recorded.
https://methodisthistoryireland.org/irish-methodist-baptismal-and-marriage-records/

Donegall Square Methodist may have kept their own record of marriages in much the same way as R.C churches did pre & post 1864.

The 1st marriage by the useages of the Methodist Church in Donegall Sq East Wesleyan Methodist
photo https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=881208504103039&id=100066416921231
now the Ulster Bank https://www.geograph.ie/photo/383985

was on 9 Nov 1863 under GRONI church code 736 book 1 entry 1 M/1863/B1/736/1/1 all previous are under /570/ Belfast Registrar Office or Registrar attended.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1863/09645/5497946.pdf
Married in the above Registered Building according to the useages of the Wesleyan Methodist Church, by Licence.

for comparison here is 17 Sep 1862 M/1862/B1/570/29/252
Married in the above Registered building under the Provisions of the Act 7 & 8 Vic Cap 81, by L

OK but how do you account for the Methodist marriages pre 1845? (I have seen the Donegall Sq records in PRONI. There's plenty of them for those 10 years 1835 - 1845).

Not trying to trip you up but I am genuinely interested to know how they did that if it was not lawful.

[Wexflyer]

OK but how do you account for the Methodist marriages pre 1845? (I have seen the Donegall Sq records in PRONI. There's plenty of them for those 10 years 1835 - 1845).

Not trying to trip you up but I am genuinely interested to know how they did that if it was not lawful.

Your faith that the clergy followed the law is touching.
The Catholic clergy certainly didn't

[Elwyn Soutter]

Your faith that the clergy followed the law is touching.
The Catholic clergy certainly didn't

I am pretty comfortable with them conducting unlawful marriages. I’d just like to know that was really what was happening, so I can accurately say that (when I do research for folk whose ancestors married in these denominations).

All these anomalies are intriguing. Jon_NI has mentioned that the Presbyterian church normally only married by licence. That fits my experience of researching those records too, but I do know of some Presbyterians married by banns in the late 1840s and 1850s. I know a Presbyterian Minister locally and asked him why that might have been. He doesn’t know. I'd love to know.

It’s all a bit esoteric, but it is interesting to understand the background, if you can find it.

[Wexflyer]

According to this discussion, pre-1845 marriages by dissenting ministers were valid, so long as they weren't mixed marriages
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1861-05-14/debates/781451c3-346c-4406-b461-16da7ff90174/MarriageLaw(Ireland)

[Jon_ni]

OK but how do you account for the Methodist marriages pre 1845? (I have seen the Donegall Sq records in PRONI. There's plenty of them for those 10 years 1835 - 1845).

Not trying to trip you up but I am genuinely interested to know how they did that if it was not lawful.

Offhand, I can't other than Wexflyers suggestion they flouted things.

Wex though I said the original 1844 Act and the 1870/71 Acts don't appear on Legislation gov uk I added the same legislation.ie plus a Histpop link at the end wiich has clearer text but can be troublesome to open. There is also an historic pdf print somewhere - just remembered Familysearch https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/247928

The 1844 Acts and 1868 Royal Commission definately indicate Presbyterian marriage by banns was possible just rare. Think they say the same for R.C Banns (Wexflyer?). As an aside I know in Scotland the norm was basically to read banns 3 times on one day rather than on successive Sundays per C of E.

Edit doesn't clarify the 1835-44 situation: 1844 Marriage Act:

XLIX. And be it enacted, That, except in the Case of Marriages by Roman Catholic
Priests which may now be lawfully celebrated, if any Persons shall knowingly and wilfully
intermarry after the said Thirty-first Day of March, in any Place other than the Church or
Chapel or certified Presbyterian Meeting House in which Banns of Matrimony between
the Parties shall have been duly and lawfully published, or specified in the Licence,
where the Marriage is by Licence, or the Church, Chapel, registered Building or Office,
specified in the Notice and Registrar's Certificate or Licence as aforesaid, or without due
Notice to the Registrar, or without Certificate of Notice duly issued, or without Licence
from the Registrar, in case such Notice or Licence is necessary under this Act, or in the
Absence of a Registrar where the Presence of a Registrar is necessary under this Act, or
if any Persons shall knowingly or wilfully, after the said Thirty-first Day of March,
intermarry in any certified Presbyterian Meeting House without Publication of Banns, of
any Licence, the Marriage of all such Persons, except in any Case herein-before
excepted, shall be null and void.

[Elwyn Soutter]

I hope Mackers doesn’t mind us hijacking his thread. Clearly Methodist and Dissenting marriage practice is of no interest to him/her but I have found this discussion really helpful.

I get contacted regularly by Canadians with Methodist ancestors from the north of Ireland. They are looking for the usual records. Understanding precisely what Methodists practises were in the 1800s is very helpful. (Of course there are Wesleyans and non-Wesleyans, and they had different practices) . Knowing the overarching legislation helps too.

Every day is a school day.