Griffith Family of Lloftwen, Pengelli, now Coedpoeth - 1851 census?

[CheshireSteve]

Wow - I am overwhelmed.

I was making a speculative link between the John Griffith, brother of Edward Griffith, son of Edward and Anne Griffith at Vrondeg, and the fact that the will of Edward Griffith snr in 1708 refers to several members of the 'Fenny' family in Marchwiel.

John Griffith doesn't appear in later transactions of Anne Griffith, or her son and heir Edward, making me wonder if he died, so the 1722 Marchwiel death was a potential connection. What you have uncovered is a fit in terms of name, time, and location, but no origin for this John Griffith, and no link evident to the 'Fenny' family.

I suppose we don't know his wife's maiden name. Was she a Jones that married another unrelated Jones as her first husband? We have already had a Griffith that married another Griffith in this same thread. I suppose that is not uncommon - though Fenny/Fenna/Fennah is pretty uncommon - I wonder why they were mentioned in the 1708 will? Maybe the connection is by the named nephews of Edward Griffith snr - Francis Edwards and William Davies.

Steve

[wilcoxon]

I was stuck at home because of the snow and ice so decided to do some more digging.

From the Samuel Fenny and Jane James marriage I looked for any documents for a James in that area.
I found a will.

http://hdl.handle.net/10107/838642

 John James 1700 Bedwell Marchwiel .  I hit GOLD .

Basic details.
John James of Bedwell . I give to my grandson John Griffith £20 , daughter Anne Griffith £20 , grandson Edward Griffith £10. Grandson Simon Phenie £20 , daughter Jane Phenie £10 , Robert Druly ? 2 shillings  6 pence , Ann Morris 2 shillings  6 pence , son in law Edward Griffith of Esclusham yeoman 1 shilling, son in law Samuel Phenie of Bedwell 1 shilling, grandson Simon Phenie get the remainder of items in the house where I dwell, Daughters Ann and Jane are executors .
No mention of a wife. Edward Griffith and Simon Phenie the son in laws didn`t get much. Perhaps they had money of their own .

John James of Bedwell was buried 13 December 1700 Marchwiel.
Edward Griffith of Ruabon married Ann Jones  of this parish 14 May 1696 Marchwiel.
Has the clerk made a mistake with her name. 

1696 28 Oct  Samuel Fenny Marriage Spouse Jane  James
1697 26 Jan (Unknown)  Son of Samuel Fenny  bapt ( Simon or Samuel )
1700  born 9 March bapt 19 March. Jane Fenny daughter of Samuel Fenny and wife Jane.
1705  7 Jan John Fenny son of Samuel Fenny and wife Jane baptised 
1732 15 April  Samuel Fenny  buried
1737 3 Oct James Fenny son of Simon Fenny and wife Elizabeth baptised
1737 3 Oct James Fenny son of Simon Fenny and wife Elizabeth baptised
1737 23 Oct Elizabeth Fenny  wife of Simon Fenny burial
1740 17 Oct John Fenny Burial (John Fenny`s child of Gresford.)
1744 29 July  David  Fenny son of Simon Fenny buried
1760 31 Oct Elizabeth Fenny. (The bastard Child)   Burial Mother Elizabeth
1764 28 March Martha Fenny of Bangor burial
1766 31 Jan Simon Fenny Burial
1770 31 Jan John Fenny of the parish of Bangor.  Burial
1817 20 Feb Jane Fenny w/o  Samuel burial

 The above are all I found in the original images, some were wrongly transcribed or had been missed out.
Hope this helps .

[wilcoxon]

Wow - I am overwhelmed.

I was making a speculative link between the John Griffith, brother of Edward Griffith, son of Edward and Anne Griffith at Vrondeg, and the fact that the will of Edward Griffith snr in 1708 refers to several members of the 'Fenny' family in Marchwiel.
Steve

It`s the 1780 will that mentions the Fenny`s . They  are still in the Marchwiel area.
Simon Fenny and Elizabeth Fenny ( & and ? )  two of the  heirs of Pen Celli near Bala.
Does he mean the above Fenny`s or someone else.
I don`t understand.


http://hdl.handle.net/10107/637239

[CheshireSteve]

Wow, you certainly struck gold. Well done. I think I need to draw up a family tree to help arrange the information.

The alternative spelling Phenie as Fenny is almost designed to cause difficulties for those searching computer records. So it seems the surname is one that is not so totally rare, but rather one that comes in various forms, and I thought Griffith/Gruffydd was tricky enough.

Excellent work.

Steve

[CheshireSteve]

It`s the 1780 will that mentions the Fenny`s . They  are still in the Marchwiel area.
Simon Fenny and Elizabeth Fenny ( & and ? )  two of the  heirs of Pen Celli near Bala.
Does he mean the above Fenny`s or someone else.

I don`t understand.

My mistake. Curious that the link to the Fenny family via Anne's sister is still so strong 84 years later. It certainly appears that Edward was last of the line before his marriage in 1778, with no heirs.

I still struggle with the dates though. If Anne married Edward in 1696, then the sons she bore (which were named in the 1700 will of John James) would have only been 10 to 12 years old when they were named as executors in the 1708 will of Edward. There is little doubt they are the sons of Ann, as John names them as his grandsons, and names his daughter, Ann. As he has no sons, his daughters and their children are his bloodline. Perhaps the marriafe od Edward Griffith and Ann Jones in 1696 Marchwiel was not a transcription error, and the Marriage of Edward Griffith and Ann James was earlier, allowing the sons to be old enough to be executors in 1708.

Edward would have been born about 1697 if the marriage is correct. It seems extraordinary that he might have married a much younger woman in 1778 and had a child in 1779 when he would have been 82. It still seems likely we have lost a generation somewhere in the 1750s, but then the 1780 will with generous beqests to the Fenny family then seems even more curious.

Then we have his son John Griffith - is he the John Griffith of Bryn y Grog who's 1722 will I discovered. The value of the bequests in that will seem to be of a different order, and we (and here I mean mainly 'Wilcoxon') have discovered the Marchwiel link was by his father marrying Ann James. John's wife Ermine Jones was a widow and potentially came with considerable money. It could be that John's will mainly transfers this wealth and the Bryn-y-Grog property down the Jones family line.

I wonder now if we have exhausted the available material?

Steve

[wilcoxon]

In the 1780 will of Edward Griffith he states that " if within legal time my wife Sarah should have a son "
So presumably she may have been pregnant which for an 80 odd man would be pretty good going.
There must be another generation,  but we  only have two names  so far.
I still think the marriage bond is worth getting.
I am still poking around with the Fenny lot . Why are there no marriages, 

Also looking again at the John Griffith and children of Bryn Y Grog. Why the change of name to Jones   

[wilcoxon]

Then we have his son John Griffith - is he the John Griffith of Bryn y Grog who's 1722 will I discovered. The value of the bequests in that will seem to be of a different order, and we (and here I mean mainly 'Wilcoxon') have discovered the Marchwiel link was by his father marrying Ann James. John's wife Ermine Jones was a widow and potentially came with considerable money. It could be that John's will mainly transfers this wealth and the Bryn-y-Grog property down the Jones family line.

Where did you see this. It's not on the parish registers I saw.

Steve
[/quote]

[CheshireSteve]

Think I misread your 'was she a widow' as 'she was a widow'

I had already seen in the John Griffith will that he mentions his son William Jones, but the other children just as John, Thomas, Mary, Ermine, and one I can't make out starting with 'ff'. He also mentions a step? brother John Jones. I am not sure if the word is 'step'.

From your account of Ermine's 1748 will, it seems these were then all named Jones. Now you raiose it I suppose his 'son' might not be from a previous marriage, but might be named William Jones Griffith - maybe they all had Jones as middle name. My grandmother had James as her middle name, it was her mother's maiden name.

One thing I found recently is the Bryn Dinas property in Moreton Wallicorum mentioned in an Anne Griffith transaction of 1724 and the Elizabeth Griffith transaction of 1803, is also mentioned in 1873 in the newspapers as being the location of the second water reservoir being built on the Esclusham/Moreton Wallicorum border - owner John Rogers. The part of the reservoir in Esclusham Above was on a property called Plas-yn-fron (owner John Burton).

[wilcoxon]

JOHN JAMES
 Will.  John James 1700 Bedwell Marchwiel . 
John James of Bedwell . I give to my grandson John Griffith £20 , daughter Anne Griffith £20 , grandson Edward Griffith £10. son in law Edward Griffith of Esclusham yeoman 1 shilling, Daughters Ann and Jane are executors . No marriage has been found for Ann James to a Griffith.

John James seems to have married twice.
10 Feb 1661 at Holt.
 John James of Bangor parish and Alis Dodd daughter to Owen Dodd of Holt parish.
It`s unusual to have the name of the bride`s father.

Alice James buried 2 February 1679 Bangor on Dee.

8 February 1686 at Holt.
John James of Bedwell married Elizabeth daughter of John Richardson. (by licence ?)
Again more father`s details. This seems to indicate they were important families .
Anne James could be from his first marriage to Alis Dodd.
 
Anne James baptised at Wrexham 19 Apr 1664 d/o John James of Esclsysh (Esclusham)    
David James bapt 13 Jul 1668 Wrexham. s/o John James of Esclusham. Nothing more found about him.

16 Nov 1709 at Holt. John Richardson of Ridley Wood buried.  ?  No will found.

There is a will John Richardson in 1765. Of  Sutton Green, Holt. His eldest son is also named John., so it seems it`s a name handed down.

William Dod : will, 1639 Sutton.
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/442707
Witnesses . Owen Dod. Christopher Dod. John Dod.  Daughters. Ales Dod. Anne Dod. Margaret Dod.

Alice Dod  Spinster. will, 1662 of Sutton. Owen`s sister.
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/689243

Owen Dod Will 1665. Of Sutton.
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/721446
He names Anne, Margaret , Ales, Elianor. Supposed daughter Frances. No” James  mentioned”.  It`s a bit complicated but he had money.

Edward Dod : will, 1685 Sutton.
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/526321
He  is a brother to Owen and leaves £10 to his neice Anne James. Her father John James married Alice / Ales Dod. One the names when the will was proved seems to be John James ?
Ann James  must have been born between 10 Feb 1661 and 2 February 1679 and still unmarried in 1685.

It`s so frustrating not finding that marriage to Edward Griffith.