James family Cavan

[trekcuber]

Hello,
I have been researching my grandmother's family, the James's. Her great great grandfather was John James (1824-1860), who died of consumption on 31 Jul 1860. He lived in Osgoode in the 1851 (Jan 1852) and 1861 census death register. I also have him and his wife appearing on early 1850s Methodist Church records. His wife was Elizabeth Ann "Eliza" Little (1833-1909), her second husband was David Fulcher and third was Alex Stuart. John was buried in the Metcalfe Union Cemetery. My grandmother's aunt said that John was born in Cavan but I was never able to confirm that. An old letter from a cousin's wife in the 80s said that John's father was a Thomas James who was murdered and buried in an Anglican Cemetery in Metcalfe.

I found a Thomas James in Cavan on the 1821 census but I don't think that was him since he was a Presbyterian. I would really appreciate it if anyone was able to help me.

The first record of the James's in Osgoode was the baptism of Thomas William James, I think he was John 1824's half brother. He was baptized in 1844 to Thomas and Harriet James. Harriet, Thomas W and another son Joseph were living together in 1861 census but the husband Thomas Sr was dead. I am guessing Harriet is John's step mom and her husband was his father but I have not been able to prove anything beyond this. I would appreciate any help anyone would be able to give.

[Wexflyer]

I found a Thomas James in Cavan on the 1821 census but I don't think that was him since he was a Presbyterian. I would really appreciate it if anyone was able to help me.

Here is the 1821 census entry for Thomas James in Granard St., Ballyjamesduff.
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/c19/007246487/007246487_00313.pdf

There is no mention of religion, Presbyterian or otherwise. Even if he was, Protestants could be fluid in their affiliations.

[trekcuber]

There are many children baptized under 'Thomas James and wife Mary Williamson' in the Presbyterian Church in Ballyjamesduff. They're on rootsireland, Jane 1827, Robert 1828, William 1830 and Jane 1832. I think the Thomas James on the Moodoge tithe books and the valuation books for the 1840s seems to be the same guy.
Honestly I don't think this could be the same person as the Thomas in Osgoode... seems like too much of a religious difference. He could've easily gone to the Presbyterian Church in Osgoode if he was Presbyterian.

[Wexflyer]

What were Thomas and John in BNA, in terms of occupations? The point being, would one expect to see Thomas in the tythe valuation in Ireland? There being only one Thomas James in 1831 in the tythe valuations for Cavan.

As regards religion, and my comment on a certain fluidity, have you considered that Methodism might have been the preferred affiliation of their wives?  Are there marriage records for them?

[trekcuber]

The letter that my grandma's cousins wife wrote stated that Thomas was a shoemaker and that he ran a store in Vernon, Ontario but I am not sure if that is true. John was a farmer so I always thought that his dad would have farmed as well but there is no source for that. But maybe Thomas wasn't qualified to be on the tithe books.

That's an amazing point about religion and spouses. For years I had Thomas who married Mary Williamson as the mother of John, since it fit quite nicely with the parish records for BDJ only starting in 1826. And if Mary died, and Thomas married Harriet ----, she was born in England according to the 1861 census, so she would have been Anglican and maybe that's why Thomas was supposedly buried in an Anglican Cemetery - that always struck me as strange since John was a Methodist but John's wife Eliza's family, the Little's, were Methodists as well so maybe that's where that came from.

Thank you for your input. A fresh perspective can really help!

[Wexflyer]

The tythe valuations listed holders of land. So if your ancestor was a landless laborer, or only held a house without a garden, he would not have been listed (though standards for taxing houses seemed to have varied from parish to parish). So, if your Thomas was a shoemaker with just a small house somewhere, he probably would not have been listed. You can see this on the page that does list the lone Thomas James appearing in the tythe valuations for Co. Cavan - the fellow in the townland of Moodognes [modern official spelling Moodoge].  The village of Ballyjamesduff is partly in that townland, and you can see on the valuation page that the village houses are all lumped into a single entry, with no names (last entry for townland).

http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/reels/tab//004587415/004587415_00245.pdf

[Wexflyer]

One last comment on religion. Both Presbyterians and Methodists were nonconformists in Ireland. I never got the impression that it was a big jump from one to the other. The big divide was Protestant versus Catholic.

A little joke about the differences:

When the Methodist minister falls down the stairs, he picks himself up and says, 'That was an experience, how do I learn from it?'

When the Presbyterian minister falls down the stairs, he picks himself up and says, 'That was inevitable, I'm glad it's over.'

[Wexflyer]

A point to consider: Griffith's valuation for Co. Cavan was published in 1856. Unlike the tythe valuations it includes all property - land, houses and otherwise. There is no James listed for Ballyjamesduff.

Now if Thomas was still there, then it would be clear that he could not be the same fellow as the Thomas in Canada. No James being there does not prove they are the family who moved to Canada, but it is consistent with it.

A counter argument is that the Thomas James in the Valuation Office records in Ballyjamesduff in 1837 is obviously affluent. His house is rated at 15-15-0 £-s-d, which is a very substantial amount. Is that consistent with the family in Canada?

http://census.nationalarchives.ie/search/vob/results.jsp?surname=james&firstname=tho*&year_from=&year_to=&dd_dd=&dd_mm=&dd_yyyy=&book=&county=cavan&barony=&parish=&townland=&last_name_other_or_lessor=&first_name_other_or_lessor=&search=Search

[trekcuber]

That's a good joke hahaha. I've looked into religious denominations for this before.

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure about the James's financial status early on. John wrote a will in 1860, in which he stated that he gave his 99 acres to his wife Eliza. His son (also Thomas William James (1850-1912)) later became a successful farmer and was reeve of Osgoode for a couple of years. John gave his 3 daughters 10 British pounds (about $1900 USD today) each, which seems to be somewhat substantial for a farmer in his mid thirties. This will isn't online and I bought it from ONLAND a couple of years ago.

 On the other hand, Harriet and her family seem to have completely disappeared. They were servants in a neighbors house in 1861 (this neighbor also witnessed John's will, Henry Hannah) and there is no further record of them after that. One would think if they came from influence that there would be some other record of them.