Author Topic: Need help translating old, exciting shorthand  (Read 659 times)

Offline pknowles

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Need help translating old, exciting shorthand
« on: Thursday 12 December 24 16:51 GMT (UK) »
Hello all-

I am with the Museum of Northwest Colorado in Downtown Craig, CO. We have some trial transcripts in the museum from the infamous trial of Ann Bassett- a well-known woman (some would say outlaw) of the day. However, I have had people tell me that the shorthand is an obsolete version (image attached). I am hoping somebody here can point me in the right direction. Thanks so much for your help!

Paul

Online HeatherLynne

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Re: Need help translating old, exciting shorthand
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 19 December 24 01:07 GMT (UK) »
Hi Paul, have only just seen your post but at a quick look it could be Pitman shorthand, I can make out a few words here and there.

I'll have another look on a larger screen tomorrow but my reply will move your post to the top so others might see it  :)

Regards and welcome to Rootschat!
Heather
Rassell - South Hayling/Portsea/Chelsea,  Hellyer - Totnes/Islington,  Roots - Hackney,  Edden - St Pancras

Offline Greensleeves

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Re: Need help translating old, exciting shorthand
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 19 December 24 20:45 GMT (UK) »
Hi Paul - just seen your post.  Heather & I have worked on here on Pitman transcriptions in the past.   I'll have a better look tomorrow & if she & I can confirm it's Pitman shorthand we might well be able to help.  As Pitman is phonetic it helps to have as much background to the document as possible.
Regards
GS
Suffolk: Pearl(e),  Garnham, Southgate, Blo(o)mfield,Grimwood/Grimwade,Josselyn/Gosling
Durham/Yorkshire: Sedgwick/Sidgwick, Shadforth
Ireland: Davis
Norway: Torreson/Torsen/Torrison
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Offline Wayne N

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Re: Need help translating old, exciting shorthand
« Reply #3 on: Friday 20 December 24 05:21 GMT (UK) »
Here's a start to the background information
https://museumnwco.org/queen-ann-bassetts-trial-transcripts/
NORTON (Kent), KEECH (Dorset), MOOR / MOORE (Kent), HOCKING (Dorset / Somerset), LEVI (City of York), SANDWELL (Kent), CHAFFIN  (Dorset / Somerset), STRONG (Dorset)


Online HeatherLynne

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Re: Need help translating old, exciting shorthand
« Reply #4 on: Friday 20 December 24 20:14 GMT (UK) »
Good to see you Greensleeves  :)

Your link is helpful waynenort, thank you  :) I  wasn't aware of Ann Bassett's story and as an English person, having seen the film Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid many years ago is my frame of reference  :)

Well I printed out the shorthand, numbered the lines for ease of reference but haven't really come up with much of a transcription.

The shorthand does resemble Pitman New Era which I learnt in 1979/80, this system has been around since 1922. It would be helpful to know things like:
a) what was the date of this trial? 1911 seems to be mentioned so presumably after then.
b) is this a random page from the trial as maybe to start with the first page would be simpler? How many pages are there?
c) it looks like there are a couple of words written in scribbly longhand, on lines 8 and 10 - can anyone with knowledge of the case, area or people involved hazard a guess at what these might say? E.g. Nastaley??

The most complete line I can guess at is the second one "we not personally present when they pass down most of the time". The second half of line 11 might read "I am living in fear at the moment". Line 12 possibly mentions "live stock and territory". The outline before 1911 appears to be March.

Once a writer has learnt the rules of how the phonetics are captured they tend to develop their own short forms for words that appear regularly in what they're recording so it's rarely straightforward to transcribe another person's shorthand, I used to struggle enough with my own at times!!

Sorry I can't give any more transcription than that, maybe it's an earlier version of Pitman shorthand than I learnt?

Maybe Greensleeves will be more successful  :)

Good luck with your research.
Heather
Rassell - South Hayling/Portsea/Chelsea,  Hellyer - Totnes/Islington,  Roots - Hackney,  Edden - St Pancras

Offline Erato

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Re: Need help translating old, exciting shorthand
« Reply #5 on: Friday 20 December 24 22:47 GMT (UK) »
"it looks like there are a couple of words written in scribbly longhand, on lines 8 and 10 - can anyone with knowledge of the case, area or people involved hazard a guess at what these might say? E.g. Nastaley??"

That would be Ora Haley, the rancher who accused Ann Bassett of cattle rustling.
Wiltshire:  Banks, Taylor
Somerset:  Duddridge, Richards, Barnard, Pillinger
Gloucestershire:  Barnard, Marsh, Crossman
Bristol:  Banks, Duddridge, Barnard
Down:  Ennis, McGee
Wicklow:  Chapman, Pepper
Wigtownshire:  Logan, Conning
Wisconsin:  Ennis, Chapman, Logan, Ware
Maine:  Ware, Mitchell, Tarr, Davis

Offline Wayne N

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Re: Need help translating old, exciting shorthand
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 21 December 24 04:51 GMT (UK) »
Maybe
Line 6: Acc(used)
Line 8: Mr Ora Haley called and was (..)
Line 11: Mr H(aley), Where do you live? I am living in Denver at present.
NORTON (Kent), KEECH (Dorset), MOOR / MOORE (Kent), HOCKING (Dorset / Somerset), LEVI (City of York), SANDWELL (Kent), CHAFFIN  (Dorset / Somerset), STRONG (Dorset)

Offline Greensleeves

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Re: Need help translating old, exciting shorthand
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 21 December 24 17:12 GMT (UK) »
Good evening all & a big hello to Heather - nice to be in contact again!

A few scraps I have gleaned so far (with help from Heather, Erato, Wayne's input):

1.  ..................................................

2.  ...........................most of the time

3.  ............................did not do this

4.  & observe the .............................

5.  ..................................................

6.  All/Acc ??

7.  Mr Ora Haley called and upon (oath?)

8.  testified

9.  Possibly reference to Ann Bassett in longhand in brackets?

10.  Mr Haley, where do you live?  I am living in Denver at present.

11.  Are you .........................................

12.  arrived the month of March 1911 ................

13.  ..............................................................

In addition to the above - a question for the shorthand writers:  There is an outline at the end of lines 5, 9, 10, 11, 13 which looks to me like 'this year' but doesn't seem right in the context.  Any suggestions.  I was thinking of something affirmative like 'sure'.

Feel free to fill in any gaps whilst I continue to scratch my head & search for clues/inspiration.

Happy transcribing,

GS   :)

Suffolk: Pearl(e),  Garnham, Southgate, Blo(o)mfield,Grimwood/Grimwade,Josselyn/Gosling
Durham/Yorkshire: Sedgwick/Sidgwick, Shadforth
Ireland: Davis
Norway: Torreson/Torsen/Torrison
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline bbart

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Re: Need help translating old, exciting shorthand
« Reply #8 on: Monday 23 December 24 05:41 GMT (UK) »
Ann was married to a Mr. Bernard at the time of the 1911 issue (they divorced later).  Just mentioning that in case it helps!
This link is to a 1911 event involving Ann and Mr. Haley;  there may be something in there that helps with context.  No sub required to view:

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-leavenworth-post-queen-ann-bassett-b/161407182/