Caroline Elizabeth Simpson (later YATES)

[pastrelatives]

Hello,  I would like further information about CAROLINE ELIZABETH SIMPSON (later Yates).
Who were her parents
Was she British
Where was she born
If I obtain an Australian marriage certificate will it state who her parents were or where she was born?

Below I have listed FACTS, followed by 'POSSIBLES' and then 'INCORRECT'

FACTS
BORN: c1861
MARRIED; Victoria, Australia 1889 Ref: Australia Marriage Index 6552
to: Francesco Milano Yates (born 3 October 1861, Lancashire, England, UK)
note: mispelled names on the index:  Milane and Carreeline
Married name: CAROLINE ELIZABETH YATES
Caroline and Francesco had three children:
Sydney Horace Yates - born: 22 July 1891 Melbourne, Australia
Frank Yates - born: 25 January 1893 Sydney, Australia
Elizabeth Yates - born: 23 September 1896 Haslingden, Lancashire, England, UK
DIED: 8 December 1897 Haslingden, Lancashire, England, UK. aged 36

POSSIBLES
BORN: (Arkendale?) Yorkshire, England, UK c1861
Sailed to Australia with her family WHEN?
Came back from Australia between 1893 and 1896

INCORRECT
The Caroline Elizabeth Yates who died in 1900 in Redfern, Sydney, Australia is NOT the C E Yates I am looking for.

Any help would be much appreciated.
Thank you
Frances

[sparrett]

Hi Frances,
It has taken a little while for helpers to notice your request!

Next time Australian Board a bit further down to...-Subject "New Topic" is the spot.

On a Victorian Marriage Certificate you will find a lot of information and it is often thoroughly worth the cost. Not all our states have the same level of detail.

Victoria
Date
Couple's names
Couple's ages
Couple's birthplaces
Previous status
Couple's occupations
Couple's residences
Fathers' names
Fathers' occupations
Groom's mothers name
Bride's mothers name

The witnesses to the ceremony may be relatives so that adds another helpful layer and there are sometimes other useful bits to see too.


https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/search-your-family-history

Scroll to the bottom of the page and see how to purchase.
Choose the $22 option.

Downloads for viewing immediately. Online payment

Please let us know your discoveries and we might be able to help.

I see Francesco  back in Lancashire as a widower with his children in 1901.  Did he remarry?

 

 

[sparrett]

Glancing at your Ancestry tree I see you do not have details for the son Sydney Horace
Maybe you need them.

Sydney was back in NSW by 1914 where he married Florence Ada BENTLEY
YATES Sydney H
BENTLEY Florence A
At ASHFIELD

They are present on the NSW electoral Rolls together for a long time in various suburbs of Sydney.

It looks as if he transferred his upholstery skill from furniture to the automotive industry as a car trimmer.

He died in 1965

YATES Sydney  Horace
12222/1965
Father Francesco Milano
Caroline Elizabeth
At CAMPSIE


Sue

[pastrelatives]

Hello Sparrett,  thank you soooo much for the information you have given me.  I shall be ordering the marriage certificate asap.  Thank you also for the extra information about Sydney Horace.  I'll be adding that information to my Ancestry Tree.  I'm really excited to be finally finding out about Caroline E Simpson/Yates especially as so many people have the incorrect one listed as dying in Redfern, Australia.  Yes, Francesco Milano Yates (my G grandfather) did re marry twice.  He married Elizabeth Langstaff 1859-1899 and had a child named Maggie 1898-1900 with.  He then married Isabel Howard 1866-?

[sparrett]

Hi
If you are descended from Francesco's marriage with Caroline, it will be a great thing to be able to move back a generation when you see her parent's names on the marriage certificate.

The information was given by the participating parties, so is likely to be accurate (as long as they were being truthful of course).

Be sure to get the less expensive download copy as it contains all the same details as the "real thing" and is fine for family history purposes.

If you feel like sharing the findings, we would be interested to know about her.

I agree, it is frustrating when trees are published with erroneous information and then copied all over the place.
Good for you working to get it right.

Sue

 

[maddys52]

I had a look in newspapers to see if there was any mention of the family in Australia, but couldn't find anything definitive.

For interest, I see you don't have a death date for the 3rd wife Isabel nee HOWARD. She died 14 Feb 1935 - probate notes her address as 5 College St Accrington, the same as Fransesco's in 1922. Probate to Thomas William HOWARD. "Isabella YATES" on FreeBmd: Mar qtr 1935 Haslingden (8e/189) aged 71.

Modified to add:
Welcome to RootsChat from me too! And I wholeheartedly agree with Sue's comments - good on you doing the research. 

[pastrelatives]

Hi Maddys52,  many thanks for the extra information you have provided re Isabel Howard/Yates.  This will also be added to my Ancestry Tree.  She and Francesco didn't have any children so I suppose that Thomas William Howard could have been a brother.  Something I can look into at a later date.  When Francesco died in 1922 he left Isabel the sum of £163 19s 5d.  In today's money that would equate to £11,678.91.   Quite a considerable amount.
It is very exciting to find out more about Caroline Elizabeth Simpson/Yates.  I'll be ordering the marriage certificate today.  Thanking you again
Frances

[pastrelatives]

Hello sparrett and maddy52
Thought you may like an update as I have now received a copy of the marriage certificate for Caroline Elizabeth Simpson to Francesco Milano Yates

You were correct about the amount of very useful information on the Victoria certificate.

It turns out she had been married and widowed by 1885 so her birth name was:-

Caroline Elizabeth BRYANT
Born: Bathurst, New South Wales
Marriage date: 26 Sept 1889 (this was to Francesco Milano YATES)
Where living at the time: William Street, Melbourne (they were both living there)
Marriage location: Moor Street, Fitzroy and according to the rights of the Free Church of England
Age when married: 28
Witness1: Sarah Muleen
Witness 2: I can't read
Father: Thomas Bryant (Butcher)
Mother: Kate Bryant nee Quinn or Mc Quinn - It isn't very clear whether it reads nee or Mc
Previously married to: SIMPSON
Widowed by: 1885
Children with SIMPSON shows as 1 living - in the column for those dead there is either a tick rather than a number or something like a letter L - perhaps it's meant to be a dash?
The child from her marriage to SIMPSON doesn't seem to have arrived in the UK

I will now try to find out about her parents marriage to find out where they originated from.

Thank you so much for your previous help
Regards
Frances

[maddys52]

That's great Frances.

Caroline BRYANT married Charles E SIMPSON - registered in Bathurst NSW in 1879 (2497/1879).

There are 3 births in NSW with parents Charles (Edward) and Caroline SIMPSON:
1880  Edith Louise  (Parramatta) - died 1881 (Parramatta)
1882  Charles Edward (Parramatta)
1884  Edith G  (Newtown)  - died 1884  (Newtown)

Not sure about Charles' death - there are a few possibilities, but possibly this one:
Charles E SIMPSON died 1886 - registered at Parramatta (8398/1886), parents John and Elizabeth.