Author Topic: Unfindable couple / Male was in Navy  (Read 10615 times)

Offline sparrett

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Re: Unfindable couple / Male was in Navy
« Reply #117 on: Thursday 14 November 24 05:41 GMT (UK) »

 

for Bro...
Ha[?]...
Widow o ...
Correcte...
June
R E
Regis...
on prod...
Statutor...
made by ...

R E might be the initials of the Registrar? So it looks to be relevant?
 

I agree with your possible reading of the margin note.
I wonder if it will turn out to be a declaration by Martha BROOKS to the effect that HARMER is not the widow of Joseph, but she, Martha, is.

Obviously by the addresses given for Joseph BROOKS and Martha BROOKS in the couple of years before his death, Joseph and Martha were well and truly in contact.

Martha did not die until 8th Oct 1948 and the probate was granted to Harold KEVILLE.
The daughter of Joseph and Martha, Doris Florence Martha, married Harold KEVILLE at Islington in June1/4 1929.

Martha was the legal widow.

I wondered today if the "M E BROOKS widow of" ... so emphatically underlined on the death certificate could be Martha herself, but there is no sighting through census to probate etc of any second name which may have started with E.

Ah the speculation ::)

Hope the GRO is working on the copy!

Sue

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Neale1961

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Re: Unfindable couple / Male was in Navy
« Reply #118 on: Thursday 14 November 24 06:00 GMT (UK) »
I agree that DNA is the way to go from here, but I do think it is quite possible the correct father has been found and detailed here. There are such a lot of positive pointers in the various records.

Regarding the mother, I am not convinced that the Mabel Sayles born 1890 in Wimbledon, as identified in reply #14 by Sparrett is right. There doesn’t seem to be any evidence connecting her to Chatham.


In my opinion, for the birth mother, I would be looking at M. E Brooks, (AKA) Mary Elizabeth Harmer, nee Sayles. There are just too many coincidences to ignore her. She was widowed – last child born in 1906. He was separated from wife – last child born in 1907. Both were working in the same line of furniture work. Her maiden name was SAYLES – not so common. Her Christian name initials were M. E. If they were not living together in 1914/ 1915,  there certainly were, not long after.

She signed as M E Brooks on both the birth certificate and on Joseph’s death certificate. It might be interesting to see the original birth registration (rather than the registrar copy) to compare M E Brooks signature with Mary Elizabeth Harmer’s signature on other documents. I certainly would do more research into the Harmer family, and her children.

M. E. Sayles was alone when the baby was born. Her “husband” was away at sea with the navy, and had not been home for months. She would go to a friend, or an employer, or a midwife for the birth of the child – someone who was close. In Chatham, 47 New Street is just around the corner from 4 Boundary Rd – only 7 mins walk (ref google maps). 

When she registered the child’s birth, she pretended to be married to Joseph. To hide her real identity she just needed to change Mary Elizabeth to Mabel Edith. She used her correct maiden name, as was required by the paper work – probably nobody in Chatham knew her by Sayles anyway.
It is worth noting that Mary Elizabeth Harmer had a daughter called Edith May, born 2 Dec 1899. (more speculation)

According to family rumour she kept the child for about a year. That may have been true, and when Joseph returned home on leave, it was decided that the child would be adopted. They both had other children who must have been receiving financial support from them.
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Offline sparrett

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Re: Unfindable couple / Male was in Navy
« Reply #119 on: Thursday 14 November 24 07:07 GMT (UK) »


Regarding the mother, I am not convinced that the Mabel Sayles born 1890 in Wimbledon, as identified in reply #14 by Sparrett is right. There doesn’t seem to be any evidence connecting her to Chatham.



Hi Neale,
I am perfectly happy to relinquish Mabel SAYLES.  ;D. She was only ever a hypothetical starter.

I do like your thoughts and scenarios and it could all be a good trail to follow.

I did discover today that one of the witnesses at Martha (nee HALL) and Joseph's wedding was Thomas Panter HALL. He was her brother and, guess what!  owned a furniture retail business.
This maybe the business that Joseph joined when he halted his Navy career after marriage.

Sue


Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline sparrett

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Re: Unfindable couple / Male was in Navy
« Reply #120 on: Thursday 14 November 24 07:56 GMT (UK) »
From https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/224916665/edith-may-harmer

Mary Elizabeth HARMER
Birth Date   1877
Death Date 17 Aug. 1964
Cemetery   Chatham Maidstone Road Cemetery
Burial or Cremation Place   Chatham, Medway Unitary Authority, Kent, England

Name
William Alfred HARMER
Birth Date   1905
Death Date 3 May 1961
Cemetery   Chatham Maidstone Road Cemetery
Burial or Cremation Place   Chatham, Medway Unitary Authority, Kent, England


Name Julia Louie HARMER
Birth Date   1903
Death Date 14 May 1927
Cemetery   Chatham Maidstone Road Cemetery
Burial or Cremation Place   Chatham, Medway Unitary Authority, Kent, England


NameEdith May HARMER
Birth Date   1900
Death Date 12 Dec. 1923
Cemetery   Chatham Maidstone Road Cemetery
Burial or Cremation Place   Chatham, Medway Unitary Authority, Kent, England

James Carl HARMER lived until 1973 and died in Nottingham

Sue
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline BushInn1746

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Re: Unfindable couple / Male was in Navy
« Reply #121 on: Thursday 14 November 24 08:36 GMT (UK) »
Hi Bushinn.
Yes.

You are now on the same track as others in this conversation.
The observations you have made in your last post are widely discussed in the preceding pages

FYI here is the baptism of Joseph Thomas the child of Martha  (nee HALL) and Joseph BROOKS.
Sue

Sue

Here is the Birth Registration for your Baptism.

From UK BMD
Hoxton was a Sub-District of the Shoreditch Registration District

GRO Index
Birth 1903, Sept Quarter
Joseph Thomas BROOKS
Mother Maiden Surname: HALL
Shoreditch Registration District

Mark

Online heywood

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Re: Unfindable couple / Male was in Navy
« Reply #122 on: Thursday 14 November 24 08:51 GMT (UK) »
Neale’s theory sounds good. I think I thought that a while ago but then got lost in the circles  ;)
I had also wondered about why young Joseph wasn’t kept in the family if she was the mother and also Mary Elizabeth’s children - found one in 1921 but even the youngest James Carl would have likely left home by that time.
 Lastly, as she was a widow, why would she change her name for the birth? Maybe just an error.

I hesitate in asking this, but it has been said that the child was born whilst Joseph senior was away, does his record show that he was at home at the relevant time for conception?
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Online bradwaterss

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Re: Unfindable couple / Male was in Navy
« Reply #123 on: Thursday 14 November 24 08:56 GMT (UK) »
I agree that DNA is the way to go from here, but I do think it is quite possible the correct father has been found and detailed here. There are such a lot of positive pointers in the various records.

Regarding the mother, I am not convinced that the Mabel Sayles born 1890 in Wimbledon, as identified in reply #14 by Sparrett is right. There doesn’t seem to be any evidence connecting her to Chatham.


In my opinion, for the birth mother, I would be looking at M. E Brooks, (AKA) Mary Elizabeth Harmer, nee Sayles. There are just too many coincidences to ignore her. She was widowed – last child born in 1906. He was separated from wife – last child born in 1907. Both were working in the same line of furniture work. Her maiden name was SAYLES – not so common. Her Christian name initials were M. E. If they were not living together in 1914/ 1915,  there certainly were, not long after.

She signed as M E Brooks on both the birth certificate and on Joseph’s death certificate. It might be interesting to see the original birth registration (rather than the registrar copy) to compare M E Brooks signature with Mary Elizabeth Harmer’s signature on other documents. I certainly would do more research into the Harmer family, and her children.

M. E. Sayles was alone when the baby was born. Her “husband” was away at sea with the navy, and had not been home for months. She would go to a friend, or an employer, or a midwife for the birth of the child – someone who was close. In Chatham, 47 New Street is just around the corner from 4 Boundary Rd – only 7 mins walk (ref google maps). 

When she registered the child’s birth, she pretended to be married to Joseph. To hide her real identity she just needed to change Mary Elizabeth to Mabel Edith. She used her correct maiden name, as was required by the paper work – probably nobody in Chatham knew her by Sayles anyway.
It is worth noting that Mary Elizabeth Harmer had a daughter called Edith May, born 2 Dec 1899. (more speculation)

According to family rumour she kept the child for about a year. That may have been true, and when Joseph returned home on leave, it was decided that the child would be adopted. They both had other children who must have been receiving financial support from them.


That sounds like a great hypothesis, has helped me understand a little better of the potential situation!

Brad

Online bradwaterss

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Re: Unfindable couple / Male was in Navy
« Reply #124 on: Thursday 14 November 24 08:57 GMT (UK) »
Neale’s theory sounds good. I think I thought that a while ago but then got lost in the circles  ;)
I had also wondered about why young Joseph wasn’t kept in the family if she was the mother and also Mary Elizabeth’s children - found one in 1921 but even the youngest James Carl would have likely left home by that time.
 Lastly, as she was a widow, why would she change her name for the birth? Maybe just an error.

I hesitate in asking this, but it has been said that the child was born whilst Joseph senior was away, does his record show that he was at home at the relevant time for conception?


I have always wondered this, if he was away, did she put him down to avoid confrontation or gain from it?

Offline Neale1961

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Re: Unfindable couple / Male was in Navy
« Reply #125 on: Thursday 14 November 24 09:09 GMT (UK) »
Joseph’s seaman’s record is rather detailed and I wrote about some of it in reply #86.
From that record, I believe that Joseph was NOT away at sea during the time the child would have been conceived, which would have been before the outbreak of WW1.
He was away however at the time the child was born, which was after the war had started.
His seaman’s record does not give any detail about any leave in England that he may have had during the war.
Milligan - Jardine – Glencross – Dinwoodie - Brown: (Dumfriesshire & Kirkcudbrightshire)
Clark – Faulds – Cuthbertson – Bryson – Wilson: (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire)
Neale – Cater – Kinder - Harrison: (Warwickshire & Queensland)
Roberts - Spry: (Cornwall, Middlesex & Queensland)
Munster: (Schleswig-Holstein & Queensland) and Plate: (Braunschweig, Neubruck & Queensland & New York)