Unfindable couple / Male was in Navy

[heywood]

I really think that DNA might be the only thing to try now.
This thread has become a bit convoluted at times so it is difficult to pick out the ‘relevant’ information.
Bearing in mind that it cannot yet be proven, despite some great research, that we have the right people as parents of the younger Joseph Thomas Brooks born 1915.

[BushInn1746]

A) I was not saying the 1915 Birth of Joseph Thomas Brooks was wrong, because that is what we have as a basis.
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B) The Naval Index Card for Joseph Brooks , appears to have his address 47 New? Road, Chatham and also links to a Wife's address and in 1921 Census at that address, her Son "Joseph T Brooks" was older 17 and not born at Chatham.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/61588/records/157209377?tid=&pid=&queryid=d8c30741-8687-4ebc-8cfa-f43a084adc83&_phsrc=Rnp636&_phstart=successSource
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A) does not seem to fit with B) at the moment?
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Either another Navy record somewhere or the Father of the 1915 Birth was not in the Navy?

Mark

[heywood]

Not sure what you mean Bushinn.

The Balmes Road address is not in Chatham. It is in Hackney registration district,
The Joseph son (Thomas Joseph in 1911) was born in Hoxton.

I don’t think anything has been shown on here that places Martha and her children in Chatham.

[BushInn1746]

I have added the 1915 Birth Certificate of Joseph Thomas Brooks born Chatham, again from the Original Post, to my previous reply.

It was this 1915 Birth, Brad was trying to get back from.

Mark

[heywood]

Yes we are all aware of the 1915 birth and trying to make sense of it all as you are Mark.

Are you clear now about the two addresses and the people involved shown on that Naval record?

[BushInn1746]

Looking at page 2 of this thread, a Navy record and Index Card with addresses on was suggested as a possible with an invitation to keep it on file or rule it out.

Yesterday, after an address search only on a 1921 Census search of 25 Balmes Road and moving to the next Schedule same address was Martha Brooks with Son Joseph T. Brooks, not born at Chatham and too old.

Tried to explain at Reply 92 and made a 'Comment'.

Mark

[heywood]

Thanks Mark.
I would say that we were aware of all that already from early in this thread.

It is a lot to take in, especially for Brad, as the various ‘sightings’ of Joseph, the father,  and complicated as there are two sons  named Joseph Thomas, several years apart.
Fortunately, we all know that the focus is Joseph born 1915.
For all we know, Martha might not have been aware of Joseph born in Chatham.
That is, of course, if it is the right Joseph snr on the birth certificate.

[BushInn1746]

Looking at the 1921 Census for 25 Balmes Road, Location London ...
Martha Brooks [nee Hall] was the Mother of Joseph T Brooks, born Hoxton.

I'm pretty sure that the RN serviceman Joseph BROOKS (turned furniture polishe/salesperson etc) is the same man who married Martha HALL ...

and then ended up an ailing RN pensioner with Mrs HARMER, widow in 1921.

Sue

1911 Census
Looks to have been found previously due to the Shop Assistant, Furniture, reference for Joseph Brooks, born Bermondsey.

1911
46 Halliford Street, Islington
Joseph Brooks, Head, 36, M, Shop Assistant, Furniture, Bermondsey.
Martha Brooks, Wife, 43, M, ....
With children
Doris Florence Brooks, Dau, 9, Islington
Thomas Joseph Brooks, Son, 7, born Hoxton.
Edward John Brooks, Son, 5, Hackney.
Beatrice Lilian Brooks, Dau, 4, Islington.
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The Navy Index Card indicates this 1911 couple have split up with Martha Brooks [nee Hall] at 25 Balmes Road by 1921.

Joseph Brooks by 1921 Census is at 47 New Road, Chatham, with Mary Elizabeth Harmer, a Widow, listed as a Servant.

Mary Elizabeth Harmer, appears to be nee Sayles, See Marriage page 7 Reply 54 & Quote.

Mary Elizabeth SAYLES married Albert Alfred HARMER 5 Nov 1899 in Willesden, London but don't know if this is any use?

Marriage image online - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/7800137:1623

Mary Elizabeth Harmer (nee Sayles) widow, occupation is a Dresser line showrooms, Furnisher in 1911 - maybe how they met?

1911 - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/39837601:2352

I wonder if this is Mabel Ethel? Why would she change names on BC but give her maiden name...

Cas

The man that Mary Elizabeth Sayles married appears to have died in the Registration District of Hendon.

1907
Albert Alfred Harmer, 30 years, died in the Reg'n District of Hendon.
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I agree with others regarding seeing the Margin Note in full to see what was changed on the Death Certificate.

Mark

Added: I forgot so say that my suspicion is that Sayles at the Harmer=Sayles, Marriage might be related to Sayles on the 1915 Birth Certificate?

Which has already been suggested.

But one can find coincidences occasionally.

[sparrett]

Hi Bushinn.
Yes.

You are now on the same track as others in this conversation.
The observations you have made in your last post are widely discussed in the preceding pages

FYI here is the baptism of Joseph Thomas the child of Martha  (nee HALL) and Joseph BROOKS.
Sue