RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.

[John hawthorn]

Andy J2022  I thought you would like to know that there has been significant progress on the search for Edmund Roberts grave.  Recap:  He died 13 June 1940 in the Gen. Hospital No:9 at Le Grand Luce.  There are 4 unidentified graves and 2 vacant plots in the CWGC cemetery at Le Gran Luce.  The hospital records said that 3 RAF OR were brought into the mortuary late on 14 June - 2 identified & 1 unknown.  I had already establishe that 1 unidentified grave was almost certainly Major Richard Cooper-White; 1 was Edmund Roberts; & 1 contained a button from the uniform of the Royal Atillery.  I contended with CWGC that the body count from hospital records correlated to the number of the graves in the cemetery, including the RAF OR's.  They responded that 2 RAF OR's were exhumed and relocated with their other crew colleagues elsewhere (no names, squadren or details provided despite my request for these).  So we now had 2 unidentified graves and 2 people, Edmund Roberts and the unidentified RAF OR.  I have now been informed that the Joint Casualty & Compassionate Centre (JCCC) have accepted that Major Cooper-White is in a specific grave; that Gunner Joseph Humphries is in the grave where the Royal Artillery button was found; that Edmund Roberts is in 1 of the 2 other graves; and, Private William Falconer (service number 2976134 - Argyle & Sutherland Highlanders) is in the other.  There will be a rededication ceremoney on 24 June 2025, at the cemetery in Le Grand Luce, to confirm this.  I and a few other family members will be there.  I have tried to engage with the Royal Signals Museum to see if they are interested, but have had absolutely no response.  I have not been able to square off the hospital records suggesting the third, unidentified RAF OR with the JCCC establishing it is Private William Falconer in the 4th grave.  Interestingly he appeared in casualty list 236 as "died" and again in casualty list 352 corrected to "died as a result of an accident 14 June 1940".

[Andy J2022]

Hi John,
Thanks for the update. I'm pleased you have finally solved this problem. Very disappointing that you haven't received a response from the Royal Signals. Rather than the Museum, I would suggest contacting the Secretary (Col (Retd) D A Craft) of the Royal Signals Association: rsa@royalsignals.org Office Tel: 01258 482130 or 0300 1632365

You will probably receive a reply from the Assistant Secretary, Lt Col (Retd) SM Lockwood.
I feel sure he will arrange for the Corps to be represented at the re-dedication ceremony.

[John hawthorn]

Andy - Many thanks

[John hawthorn]

I have contacted the Joint Casualty & Compassionate Centre regarding the matter as to whether Edmund's regiment, Royal Corps Of Signals, were aware of the Rededication Service and received this response:-

"I have been in contact with The Royal Corps of Signals. The service will be attended by 2 of their soldiers, a Padre from The Royal Regiment of Artillery, a trumpeter from The Royal Welsh and a soldier from The Royal Armoured Corps. We have 7 soldiers we will be holding rededication services for that week, 4 at Le Grand-Luce and 3 in Normandy. These regiments represent nearly all of the regiments who the soldiers we are commemorated belonged to."

[Andy J2022]

That's a bit disappointing. I'm sure there would be no shortage of volunteers to go and represent their Corps.

[AncestryPete]

Superb detective work, very well done.
Enthusiasts succeed where officialdom was too lazy - and no I don't mean CWGC, that honour should remain with MOD Historical branches, and an honour it is to try, yet alone succeed. A duty which should not go away while lads lie unidentified.

Wonderful work by gifted researchers.

[John hawthorn]

With regard to the Dedication Service of the four graves, as yet, with no names; I have now found out from Joint Compassion and Casualty Centre (JCCC of the MOD) that there will be representatives of Edmund Roberts' regiment, Royal Corps of Signals, in attendance, among others.  6 members of Edmunds family will also be there, including 1 grandson, 2 great grand children and 1 great great grandson.  Edmund died in the Chateau at Le Grand Luce, which was being used as a military hospital at the time, 48 hours before the Germans arrived - the hospital having been evacuated.  I hope that we might be able to visit the place he actually died.  However, it is a very, very exclusive hotel (and very expensive).  And of course it will not look anything like it did in 1940.

I had not previously heard of the JCCC.  Clearly they do a lot of marvellous work researching and finding lost fallen heros.

[John hawthorn]

Once again, thank you to everbody who contributed to this thread.  You deserve an update.  I was trying to identify the names of 4 service men buried in the CWGC cemetery at Le Grand Luce, France.  They had no named headstones and there were no records available.  I knew one was Signalman Edmund Roberts, my wife's grandfather.  He died 13 June 1940 in General Hospital 9, which was located in the chateau at Le Grand Luce.  The hospital records (WO 177/1147 at National Archives) record some names of service men who died in the hospital or who were brought into the mortuary.  There is a high correlation between those names recorded and the names on headstones in the CWGC cemetery.  Through my investigation to prove Edmund was in one of the 4 graves, the Joint Casualty & Compassionate Centre, of the MOD - they call themselves MOD War Detectives on facebook - have confirmed the names of all four, and rededication services were held last Tuesday (24 June).  The graves are now that of Major Richard White-Cooper, Gunner Joseph Humphries, Private William Falconer and Signalman Edmund Roberts.  This thread originally started because the hospital records recorded, on 14th June (the day the hospital was packing up to evacuate - the evacuation was completed by 0250 hrs 15th June) that 3 RAF ORs were brought in dead.  2 were identified and 1 was not.  On the basis of that record I was trying to find the unidentified RAF OR, as part of my accounting that Edmund was 1 of the 4.  The CWGC confirmed that the 2 identified RAF ORs were exhumed and reburied with the rest of their crew in another place.  As a consequence there are 2 "vacant graves" in the rows of graves at Le Grand Luce.  I have now learnt that the hospital record was most probably inaccurate.  Other records (which I have not yet had sight of - but the information is from the JCCC's investigation) show that an ambulance was sent to the RAF ORs crash site.  It must have taken 2 of the casualties (perhaps they were critically injured and their comrades dead) back to the hospital at Le Grand Luce.  By chance, on their journey they came across an overturned truck of the 71 Field Regiment, near Villaines-la-Juhel.  Gunner Humphries was in that truck, the ambulance removed him and took him back to Le Grand Luce.  The hospital records must have assumed that as the ambulance was sent to the RAF crash site and returned with 3 bodies, they were all RAF service men.  As Villaines-la-Juhel is around 100 km north of Le Grand Luce, we can assume that the crash (if there was one) was not near Le Grand Luce after all.   I am going to continue to pursue further clarification, but felt it important to keep you informed.  Thanks.

[Andy J2022]

Thanks John, for continuing to keep this important historical record updated. Just as Signalman Edmund Roberts is personal to your family's history,  so will the names of the other dead be part of other families' history and it is good to hear that, after more than eighty years, their ancestors' final resting places are being properly recorded.