RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.

[Andy J2022]

My late wife's grandfather Signalman Edmund Roberts died in France on 13th June 1940.  Until recently we had no knowledge of where he died or where he was buried.  It was always assumed he died at Dunkirk.  His only memorial is his name on the columns at Dunkirk cemetery.

John, first of all, welcome to the forum. And secondly, I'm sorry that no-one has so far acknowledged your posting. Clearly your research is relevant to the main subject of this thread.

I assume that your wife's grandfather was 2572212 Sig Edmund Roberts, born 1912 in Northumberland and living in Essex prior to joining the Army.

Have you contacted the MOD for a copy of his service record? I can't imagine that you haven't, given the amount of research you've done so far, but if not that might provide some additional details of the unit he was serving with at the time of his death. I note that there is no casualty report for him, but there are two for a 2575457 Sig EG Roberts R SIGNALS serving with 53 Div Sigs and attached to the Royal Artillery. He was reported as wounded and prisoner of war in Cas Report No 283, and then in Cas Report No 560, as having died of wounds while a prisoner of war on 7 Aug 1940. I assume this is just a bizarre coincidence.

[penstemon5]

Thank you for all this information. It appears that after such extensive record searching, there is no record of a plane crashing on the 13/14 June, to account for the 3 RAF ORs whose bodies were brought to the field hospital in the evening of 14 June.
This may then mean that they were ground crew or there is no record of the crash.
It may be a naive question, but when things were so fraught as the Germans were advancing, were bodies always recovered quickly? Could the bodies have been from an earlier crash?
Thanks for the detailed pointers to records which I need some time to absorb.

[BushInn1746]

My reply 7 to John's very detailed reply 5 was too brief, regarding his search for Signalman Edmund Roberts who died 13th June 1940.

Quote from John
I researched the records for General Hospital No:9 held at National Archives – specifically WO.222-719

WO 222/719
Reports and Returns.
General Hospitals.    
9 Gen. Hosp.
1939 Sept.-1940 May
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C2695865

John also mentioned WO.177-1170

WO 177/1170
13 Gen. Hosp.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C2737467

John has kindly mentioned these file numbers possibly from notes made, whilst looking for someone else?

Without looking at the files I don't think you can say who two of those RAF identified were, as they might have been named in the Hospital file?

[BushInn1746]

There are also three 1940 search returns for

9 Gen. Hosp

Under the WO Reference

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_aq=9%20Gen.%20Hosp&_ep=Gen.%20Hosp&_cr=WO&_dss=range&_sd=1940&_ed=1940&_ro=any&_st=adv

WO 177/1147
1940 Jan.- Dec.

WO 222/719
1939 Sept.-1940 May

WO 222/720
1939 Dec.-1944 Sept.

[BushInn1746]

According to claims on a website (which has a warning triangle) so not copying & pasting.

No. 9 British General Hospital
Whilst at Le Grande Luce until 16th June 1940.
Seemed to have a detachment at Pacy.

[penstemon5]

Thanks. Another avenue to investigate!

[BushInn1746]

Not checked 1940 Squadron ORBs so these RAF aircraft are unconfirmed, but reputed to be linked to the Low Countries / France.

13 June, 142 Sqn, Battle.
13 June, 82 Sqn, Blenheim.
14 June, 226, Battle.
 ----------
Added:
12 Squadron
14 June, Battle L5383
Sgt R J Willcox, Sgt J Hislop, Sgt G H Emery, crashed during operational flight at Pacy-sur-Eure, France.

21 Squadron
14 June, Blenheim Mk IV.
Seems to say two aircraft (note the Serial numbers of the aircraft are missing their letter prefix).

3742, P/O Saunders ; Sgt Eden ; Sgt Webb - Fate unknown.

88 Squadron
13 June, Sgt Haywood ; Sgt Jones, shot down and both admitted to SENS Hospital.

103 Squadron
14 June, Sgt Brumby ; Sgt Hedley ; LAC Werner.
Shot down in an Orchard, near
Laval.

RAF Squadrons mentioned in France in 1940
1 ; 12 ; 21; 73 ; 88 ; 98 ; 103 ; 226 ; 242.

9 ; 17 ; 40 ; 150 ; 501 (from internet)

From memory 114 or 116 in an ORB?
As you go through the ORBs, note any
other Sqns mentioned.

67 Wing and 76 Wing are mentioned in Squadron ORBs whilst in France in 1940

67 Wing
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4097480

There are some references to Wing, Aircraft BAAF AASF some telephone Logs, etc., in files in AIR 35

RAF Wing ORBs are usually in AIR 26

Don't forget the Army and RNAS (Royal Naval Air Service) have aircraft too and their own back-up staff.

A lot of personnel evacuating went by road and once evacuating the aircraft they flew back, would have been in front.

The Service Record, or correspondence sent after the loss occurred will have reference to Units.

My Grandfather's RAF Certificate of Discharge (sent about 3 months after his death in WW 2), has the Units he was attached to, with dates.
 -------------
These cover the RAF Casualty Files released into AIR 81 so far for 13 June 1940

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ep=13%20June%201940&_cr=AIR%2081&_dss=range&_sd=1940&_ed=1940&_ro=any&_st=adv

14 June
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ep=14%20June%201940&_cr=AIR%2081&_dss=range&_sd=1940&_ed=1940&_ro=any&_st=adv

[John hawthorn]

Thank you for all your attention.  Pentemon5 originally posted this thread on my behalf.  My prime objective is to identify the grave of Signalman Edmund Roberts, who died 13th June 1940 in General Hospital No: 9, which was in Le Grand Luce.  The detachment hospital at Pacy Sur Eure had evacuated to Le Grand Luce by 10th June 1940.  The hospital evacuated to UK on 15th June 1940.  My focus is the graves of unknown servicemen (including the vacant plots) in Le Grand Luce CWGC cemetery. 
At present I can only narrow down to the likely plot(s) Edmund is buried in by process of deduction and elimination.  I attach my diagram of the graves with footnotes.  The key document I rely on (although not the only one) is at National Archives WO.117-1147, which has diary pages for the hospital.  Many of the men buried in the cemetery are named in those hospital records. 
Previous communication with CWGC included some detail about the exhumation of the graves of unknown servicemen, which took place in 1946.  The CWGC described Row C 14 & 15 as vacant plots.  After viewing WO.117-1147 I was in contention with CWGC as to whether they should be vacant.  My body count from WO.117-1147 matched the number of grave plots (including vacant ones).  This included Sgn. E. Roberts and three RAF OR's brought into the mortuary on 14th June.  Also photographs taken at the time of the burial of the 11 airmen in 1946 clearly show crosses on the “vacant” graves, although there are no markers today. CWGC tally is that there are four graves of Unknown servicemen and two vacant plots.  Hospital diary says that two of the RAF OR's brought in on 14th June were identified (but not named in the record) and one was unidentified. 
The CWGC said that the body in Row B. 2 had injuries that would be consistent with those likely Major Cooper-White had received; and, that the body in Row C. 12 was buried with a button from the uniform of the Royal Artillery.  So, I have eliminated those graves from being Sgn. E. Robert’s resting place.  But there was not only Sgn. E. Roberts, but also 3 RAF OR’s to find.  We now have 2 “Unknown” graves and 2 vacant plots.  A coincidence?  No. 
I am disappointed to say that only on Monday 28th October the CWGC  informed me for the first time “we know that two airmen who were initially buried there, were later removed to be re-buried with other members of their crew. This is the reason for the documentation describing the graves as vacant and the gap in the headstones which you can see today”.
So, that leaves only two graves in consideration; and it is almost certain one is that of Sgn. E. Roberts and the other is that of the unidentified RAF OR brought into the mortuary on 14th June.  If three RAF OR’s were brought in together what is the likelihood they were together when they died?  Did the CWGC move two to be with the rest of their crew in another place because they could be identified.  If the third was not identified there would have been the risk that it was Sgn. E. Robert’s remains they moved.  But if two RAF OR’s were identified, and the three had been together, is it not possible to hazard who the third is by process of elimination?  At present I am confident that Edmund Roberts in is one of the two graves.  I would like to think that some effort could be made to identify the unknown airman in the other one.  Somewhere a family may be researching a similar trail to the one I am on.  The CWGC did not give me the names/details of the RAF OR’s they moved.  Carole W – you asked how I knew money was given to the locals to bury them.  It is detailed in WO.117-1147 date 14th June, attached.
Again thank you all for your efforts.  The research will continue.

[John hawthorn]

Sorry I cannot get any attachments to load to the thread.