Author Topic: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.  (Read 1756 times)

Offline John hawthorn

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Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« Reply #18 on: Wednesday 30 October 24 17:41 GMT (UK) »
A new attempt to post my diagram of the graves at Le Grand Luce.

Offline John hawthorn

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Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« Reply #19 on: Friday 01 November 24 14:45 GMT (UK) »
I have been advised that this method should provide a link to the WO.117-1147 diary pages of General Hospital 9 - dates 12th - 15 June 1940, which I referred to in my post above.

https://imgur.com/a/EipOeWX

Offline BushInn1746

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Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« Reply #20 on: Friday 01 November 24 16:15 GMT (UK) »
Hello John

The original IWGC Crosses had the crew names on, that we have for an RAF burial in England in 1940.

In the pdf you attached ...

Graves showing cross markers in photo taken at burial of RAF crew 30/01/1946

I think you are saying two identified RAF OR (other Ranks) were moved and one unidentified you feel might still be buried at Le Grand Luce and you want to know who the identified were?

Not sure if any of those cover your loss, or if all Casualty Lists are on the catalogue?
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_aq=Casualty%20List&_ep=Casualty&_dss=range&_sd=1939&_ed=1950&_ro=any&_st=adv

Missing Personnel investigations went on after WW 2.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_aq=Missing&_ep=Missing%20Personnel&_dss=range&_sd=1939&_ed=1960&_ro=any&_st=adv

I would be inclined to contact a Local Research Society / Museum, over the years some have appeared TV?

What does it say in the records sent to your family and Service Record?

Offline John hawthorn

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Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« Reply #21 on: Monday 04 November 24 16:16 GMT (UK) »
Bushinn1746 - Many thanks for your post.  To reiterate:- my objective is to find the grave of Signalman Edmund Roberts (Service No:- 2572212).  A number of records confirm that he died in General Hospital N0: 9 on 13th June 1940 from gunshot wounds.He was a Despatch Rider.  He suffered g/s wounds to both legs and was amputated before he died.  We speculate that he might have been strafed by enemy plane. My research confirms that one Army OR died in hospital 13th June and 3 RAF OR were brought into the mortuary on 14th June.  With regards to the RAF personnel the records say that arrangements were made for the locals to bury them as the hospital was evacuating.  This is almost certainly the case with regard to Edmund Roberts as well.  Until recently I believed the 2 "vacant" graves and the two "Unknown" graves would account for the four in the hospital records.  Therefore, I believed Edmund Roberts could be in one of four plots.  Last week I learnt for the first time that the "vacant" plots HAD contained RAF personnel, but their bodies had been removed to be buried along with the rest of their crew.  CWGC did not give me any further details (no names, no new burial site).  Do I understand from your post you do have these details.  In some respects the new information does move me forward a small step.  I can eliminate the two "vacant" plots as being Edmund Roberts resting place.  This leaves a conclusion that of the two remaining "Unknown" graves one is Edmund and the other the third RAF OR brought into the mortuary on 14th June.  What is the likelihood a family is searching for a missing RAF OR who was in fact from the same crew as the two RAF OR who were moved?  AS that person was unidentified, as was Edmund, they would not know which body to move IF they knew that three RAF OR's were once together.


Offline John hawthorn

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Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« Reply #22 on: Monday 04 November 24 16:29 GMT (UK) »
The Chateau du Grand-Luce (now a luxury hotel), following a direct approach by e-mail,  have provided the attached copy of a page from a book "Les Jardins du Luce" by Pierrick Bourgault.  I am advised that part translates to "on a night in June the Germans arrived and took away lots of medical equipment and the municipality was charged with burying the dead who had been left behind". Copy of page attached.

Offline Andy J2022

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Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« Reply #23 on: Monday 04 November 24 16:40 GMT (UK) »
John, I appreciate that the original purpose of this thread was to find more details of the RAF aircrew and how they came to die. But since Signalman Roberts's story seems to be inextricably tied to their deaths, or at least their burials, it seems to me to be sensible not to split the thread at this stage.

I am confused as to why Sig Roberts's remains are so hard to identify. If he had both legs amputated, his remains would be very different to the unknown airman, whose body was presumably fairly intact at the time of his death. I appreciate that you may have no more knowledge about this aspect than I do, but surely when Roberts was buried he should have still had his dog tags on his body, since he had already be admitted to hospital. Even given the haste in which the British medical staff had to leave, I can't believe that adequate identification was not left with the bodies. I am convinced that the CWGC can and should do more to positively identify Roberts, and by extension the remains of the missing airman, and mark their respective last resting places in a fitting manner.

Added. I agree with your translation of the relevant passage from the book.

Offline John hawthorn

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Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« Reply #24 on: Monday 04 November 24 16:58 GMT (UK) »
AndyJ2022 - Thank you.  It is not my intention to suggest splitting the thread, merely to emphasise that it is in my interests to research the fate of the three RAF OR airmen as their resting places seems to be so closely linked to that of Sig. Edmund Roberts.  I realise that I made a typing mistake; Edmund had ONE leg amputated.  Which I would have thought still significant, but CWGC said that at the exhumation the bodies were very badly decomposed.  ID tags???  I would have expected these to have been found.  One "unknown" body in the cemetery was eliminated from my enquiry because a Royal Artillery button was found, again no ID tag?.  Presumably this poor sole was killed and brought to the mortuary, then buried in his uniform.  Whereas, Sig. Edmund Roberts had been in hospital for two weeks before his death and will presumably be in hospital gowns.  He was originally in Hospital No:13 before being transferred to hospital No:9.  So I would imagine his uniform would not have been with him.  Who knows what state the unidentified RAF OR was in when admitted to the mortuary? I will keep plugging to establish who and where re resting places for both.

Offline BushInn1746

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Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« Reply #25 on: Monday 04 November 24 21:52 GMT (UK) »
Hello John

The only information about the burials I had was from the CWGC website.

Lincolnshire Echo, 15 September 1988 published this appeal ...
DO you have a friend or relative buried in a war grave in the village of Le Grand Luce near Le Mans in France?
    If so then a group of people from Cherry Willingham would be only too pleased to put a wreath on the grave when they go there next month.
    Or they will even take a photograph of the grave for you.

    ....

We don't put names of those alive online.

See pm.

https://cherrywillingham.parish.lincolnshire.gov.uk/council-business/2024-fundraising-sub-committee-minutes/5

Someone of that name looks to have an active public role in village life according to the Parish Council website link.

They would likely have had some public and official Council contacts there at Le Grand Luce 36 years ago, possibly even Associations made contact with the English village?
 ----------
I would be trying to track down that Author by writing to the Publisher (with a letter they can forward), if no public details about the author are available.
 ----------
I wonder if this Museum can offer any contacts, there are local people about who are interested in War events and losses

The Musée des Blindés
1043 Rte de Fontevraud,
49400 Saumur
France
Tank museum located in the Loire Valley of France, in the town of Saumur.

https://museedesblindes.fr/

Not sure if they have an Aviation Archive?
Paris Airport – Le Bourget
3, Air and Space esplanade
BP 173 – 93352 Le Bourget CEDEX

https://www.museeairespace.fr/en/collections/

Offline BushInn1746

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Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« Reply #26 on: Wednesday 06 November 24 21:16 GMT (UK) »
Hello John

 ... 3 RAF OR were brought in at about 21.15 hours ...
Arrangements for their burial by the Local Curi were made
...

Burial was by the Local Curi or Curé

This would be a Local Official, esp., Church Official and Undertaker to supply coffins.

Contact the Village Church. I would have thought the burials would be recorded in the Register of the church of the person officiating at the funeral?

And

Contact the local Le Grand Luce Catholic Church for their Burial records? I think the Catholic area / Diocese Office might be Le Mans?

Church of St. Facil and St. Aurelia
The Grand-Lucé, Sarthe, Pays-de-la-Loire , France
https://gcatholic.org/churches/france/54583.htm

A local Undertaker would have supplied the coffins and they might still be in business?

An Example of a curi or curé
In most French country villages you will find a village church although attendance is less regular than before. In our village the local curé or priest runs a rota and conducts a service in one of four different churches each Sunday

CWGC by Cemetery
https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/2090501/le-grand-luce-war-cemetery/