Author Topic: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.  (Read 1758 times)

Offline penstemon5

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 93
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« on: Monday 21 October 24 21:50 BST (UK) »
Can anyone look up if there was a plane crash near Le Grand Luce? There are 4 unidentified graves in the cemetery at Le Grand Luce, 3 of whom were RAF ORs. Money was given to locals to bury them as the allied hospital was evacuating

Online BushInn1746

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,743
  • George Hood, born Selby, Yorkshire 31st Jan'y 1847
    • View Profile
Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« Reply #1 on: Monday 21 October 24 23:01 BST (UK) »
Cemetery Search 1940 RAF

On Schedule 1

Two RAF on 6th May 1940,
No. 88 Sqn.
Sgt Norman Frederick Fiddler Giddings 564658, 26 yrs.
LAC Cyril James Goddard 551885, 19 yrs.
Crashed near Grand Luce (Sarthe), 23 km SE of Le Mans, France

One RAF on 23rd May 1940
No Unit given
Harry Lawton, 636183, 22 yrs.

"There are There are 42 Commonwealth burials of the 1939-45 war here, 4 of which are unidentified."
 ----------
6th May 1940
No. 88 Squadron
Aircraft type - Battle Mk I.
Sgt N F F Giddings
LAC C J Goddard
Training
Aircraft RH-
Aircraft letter not given when published by Bill Chorley 1992.

Online BushInn1746

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,743
  • George Hood, born Selby, Yorkshire 31st Jan'y 1847
    • View Profile
Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« Reply #2 on: Monday 21 October 24 23:28 BST (UK) »
Can anyone look up if there was a plane crash near Le Grand Luce? There are 4 unidentified graves in the cemetery at Le Grand Luce, 3 of whom were RAF ORs. Money was given to locals to bury them as the allied hospital was evacuating

Only 4 are listed unidentified at the Cemetery.

Row C
However, three of those unidentified in June 1940 were officially recorded as British Soldiers on Schedule No. 4, Grave No. 12, 15 & 16, with one of those identified as Royal Artillery Grave No. 12, buried at Le Grand Luce (Sarthe).

"Graves 13 and 14  are Vacant"

"N C" written in pencil, against two Unknown British Soldiers June 1940 for their Unit, Graves No. 15 & 16.
 ----------
Graves 1 to 9 in Row C (on Schedule 3) are all identified RAF who died 1946, 525 Sqn and Row C, Graves 10 & 11, on (Schedule No. 4).

Online CaroleW

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 73,644
  • Barney 1993-2004
    • View Profile
Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« Reply #3 on: Monday 21 October 24 23:37 BST (UK) »
Where did you get the info from re locals being given money to bury them.

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Carlin (Ireland & Liverpool) Doughty & Wright (Liverpool) Dick & Park (Scotland & Liverpool)


Online BushInn1746

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,743
  • George Hood, born Selby, Yorkshire 31st Jan'y 1847
    • View Profile
Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 22 October 24 08:42 BST (UK) »
The other Unknown British Soldier 1940, is listed on Schedule No. 2, in Row B, Grave 2.



Offline John hawthorn

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 12
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 22 October 24 09:57 BST (UK) »
My late wife’s grandfather Signalman Edmund Roberts died in France on 13th June 1940.  Until recently we had no knowledge of where he died or where he was buried.  It was always assumed he died at Dunkirk.  His only memorial is his name on the columns at Dunkirk cemetery.
I established that he died in General Hospital No: 9 which was at Le Grand Luce on that date.  I researched the records for General Hospital No:9 held at National Archives – specifically WO.222-719, which is mostly the accounts of nurses regarding the evacuation of the hospital to England, but does include some brief notes by the Commanding Surgeon, and WO.177-1170 which diary pages for each day.  WO.177-1170 does include some names of patients who died in hospital or were received, deceased, into the mortuary attached to the hospital.  I was able to reconcile many names from the hospital records to the names in the CWGC cemetery at Le Grand Luce.  In communication with CWGC they have conceded that the grave at Row B No: 2 is likely to be that of Major R. Cooper-White.  His body was received into the mortuary on 12th June along with that of Pte Allison, who is buried in Row B No: 1.  The hospital records state “the former (Cooper-White) appears to have shot himself, latter (Allison) was electrocuted.”  The graves were exhumed in 1946.  The CWGC stated:-
 You have clearly located some very detailed records for the casualties admitted to 9 General Hospital at Le Grand Luce in June 1940, which certainly provides evidence that Signalman Roberts was likely buried nearby. I have checked the records we hold for the four unidentified graves in what is now Le Grand-Luce War Cemetery, which were prepared in Sept 1946. It clear from those that, as you have ascertained from your own research, the hospital was evacuated with no time to finalise arrangements. Our records speculate that the local people may have buried the final few casualties after the hospital staff had departed. Sadly due to the environmental conditions in the cemetery when they were examined in 1946, it proved impossible to find any evidence as to the identity of four of those found buried there. The cases were closed in 1952-3.
In the intervening decades we now have limited opportunities to revisit such investigations - you will find more information on Identification Cases at War Commemorations: Commonwealth Casualties | CWGC
Our exhumation records are limited and remain confidential but we do have reports for the four graves in question. I've checked each one on your behalf and made a little progress:
One casualty had some uniform items including buttons, which allowed the authorities to confirm the casualty had been serving with the Royal Artillery, hence we can exclude him as being Edmund.
•   I'm afraid that two other others were found in an extremely poor condition and without any items, uniform or insignia at all. Neither are recorded as having the injuries that Edmund is reported to have suffered from, which were distinctive and might have helped with identification. However, because of their condition they may not have been visible. However, we do have information about the dental condition of both men. It is rare for dental records to survive in the service files of Second World War casualties but if you have any information at all, either from family sources or indeed his service records, then we could see if there is any chance of comparing them against the exhumation report.
•   The fourth casualty is certainly not Edmund, but an initial review of the exhumation reports suggests a potential match to the details you have discovered for Major White-Cooper. 
I would be most grateful if you could share with us the documents you have for all the casualties. Having the full picture of who was admitted to the hospital and when would certainly help us to see if we can make any progress with any of the graves.

Edmund Roberts is not named in the hospital records, but each day the hospital diary included a table of casualties.  The table for 13th June 1940 shows 1 Army OR died that day.  If the CWGC records are correct, and it is assumed that Edmund Roberts was placed in one of the “Unknown” graves that still leaves 1 “Unknown” grave unaccounted for and the 2 plots CWGC say are vacant.  Photographs of the cemetery taken in 1946, at the time of the burial of those from 525 Squadron, clearly show crosses on the “vacant” plots.  No markers are on those vacant plots now.
The hospital records of 15th June show that it was evacuated back to England.  It is assumed there was insufficient time to properly administer and record Edmund’s burial, and that such arrangements were left to the local people.
The hospital records (WO.177-1170) for 14th June record:-
“During the day the bodies of 3 RAF OR were brought in at about 21.15 hours & placed in the mortuary.  Arrangements for their burial by the local  ….(unsure word)… were made late that night & money to cover the cost of coffins & burial.  Two of these were identified & one unknown”.
If these 3 RAF OR’s were included, along with Edmund Roberts, the body count would tally with the number of graves in the cemetery at Le Grand Luce, including the vacant plots.

Offline Crumblie

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 721
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 22 October 24 12:00 BST (UK) »
The third menber of the crew Sgt G. W. Acock (Observer) survived the crash and was admitted to hospital dangerously ill.

Online BushInn1746

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,743
  • George Hood, born Selby, Yorkshire 31st Jan'y 1847
    • View Profile
Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 23 October 24 09:26 BST (UK) »
Cemetery Search 1940 RAF

On Schedule 1

Two RAF on 6th May 1940,
No. 88 Sqn.
Sgt Norman Frederick Fiddler Giddings 564658, 26 yrs.
LAC Cyril James Goddard 551885, 19 yrs.
Crashed near Grand Luce (Sarthe), 23 km SE of Le Mans, France

One RAF on 23rd May 1940
No Unit given
Harry Lawton, 636183, 22 yrs.

"There are There are 42 Commonwealth burials of the 1939-45 war here, 4 of which are unidentified."
 ----------
6th May 1940
No. 88 Squadron
Aircraft type - Battle Mk I.
Sgt N F F Giddings
LAC C J Goddard
Training
Aircraft RH-
Aircraft letter not given when published by Bill Chorley 1992.

The third menber of the crew Sgt G. W. Acock (Observer) survived the crash and was admitted to hospital dangerously ill.

We can match Sgt Acock and the two No.88 Squadron Aircrew to the Battle aircraft L5243, which took off at 1125 on a Fuel Consumption Test and crashed South-east of Laval at about 1550 hours on 6th May 1940.

The Route to be taken was also given in letter, by Low Flying Area No.1 and thence by corridor to Low Flying Area No.2 to Chateau Gontier and back by the same route.

Some Routeing /Routing documents with maps S.D. 158 / SD158 and these for 1940 are in AIR 10.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ep=SD158&_cr=AIR%2010&_dss=range&_sd=1940&_ed=1940&_ro=any&_st=adv

Seven other AIR Routeing files for 1940
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ep=Routeing&_cr=AIR&_dss=range&_sd=1940&_ed=1940&_ro=any&_st=adv

Including one A.A.S.F. over French Territory 1940 in AIR 35/86
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C2458509

The letter from No.88 Squadron RAF to No.75 Wing RAF, letter reference 88S/21/9/AIR and dated 12th May 1940 (which appears to have come from the Casualty File in AIR 81 at TNA, Kew) mentions the reference to No. 9 General Hospital in this No. 88 Squadron letter.

The accident investigation came under the B.A.F.F., according to the same letter.

General Hospital No: 9 also mentioned in John Hawthorn reply.

Online BushInn1746

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,743
  • George Hood, born Selby, Yorkshire 31st Jan'y 1847
    • View Profile
Re: RAF crash 13 or 14 June 1940 near Le Grand Luce , Sarthe France.
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 24 October 24 22:51 BST (UK) »
Do you have a report of an air crash?

They were bombing the retreating RAF too.
 ------------------

The retreating RAF at nearby Sougé (about 19 miles away) on the 14 & 15 June 1940 were being bombed.

103 Squadron

AIR 27/813/15

There is a reference to No.12 Squadron and No.226 Squadron.

Arrived at Sougé 12 Battle & 2 Magister aircraft.

14th June 1940 bombed.
15th June 1940 bombed again.
Casualties were placed into ambulances and orders given for their evacuation to the nearest civil hospital. Those killed were buried.

Sgt Bone, wounded.

AIR 27/818

At Folio 132
Believe four killed and six injured on the 15th June 1940 and apart from Sgt Bone, wounded, only one of the four killed was named as Sgt Dowling.

Because RAF Squadrons and Units were on the move, they were unable to ascertain those situated at Sougé.

CWGC
Sgt Dowling was buried at Sougé-sur-Braye.
There are three others named as lost on 15th June 1940.

No 226 Squadron
No. 226 Squadron were at Faux Villecerf in May 1940 and some sources say Sougé for June 1940. However, their ORB referring to the evacuation of France says the last aerodrome occupied by the Squadron was at Arting [probably Artins Landing Ground] and on the night of Friday 14th June 1940 an order to move immediately to Rennes.

AIR 27/1406/9

Says all the records of the Squadron were left behind and their historical record briefly put together after.

AIR 27/1408
 -------------
penstemon5, if you 'Sign in' for free you can download the relevant Squadron ORBs covering the month of June 1940 ...

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/advanced-search

Exact Word or ... search box e.g. 226 Squadron
AIR 27 in the Any of these References box.
Dates 1940 in both.

Or you can put the full AIR catalogue reference given, straight into the Any of these References box.

There are some files in AIR 35 dealing with France in 1940
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_cr=AIR%2035&_dss=range&_sd=1940&_ed=1940&_ro=any&_st=adv