Author Topic: The Demolished Brick Walls Thread  (Read 2832 times)

Offline 4b2

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Re: The Demolished Brick Walls Thread
« Reply #9 on: Monday 03 February 25 05:19 GMT (UK) »
(9) With the new depths one can plumb with Ancestry now charging for the privilege of showing all shared matches down to 8cM, I opened up the matches for a 2nd cousin for my grandmother today. I'd looked around his matches before, but not found any conclusive coordinates.

I began pawing through some of the lower cM matches that peeled off from the main cluster of matches. Finding a clump of closely related people with common matches from ancestors born c. 1850 I quickly spied a few names that looked to be the same - Schuchman, Shookman and others. The happened to converge in the area of one of my dead ends - in the vicinity of Darmstadt, Hesse, Germany.

An ancestor from here, who had found his way to Madras and eventually Singapore had left a clue of his origin when he advertised his music school with he being "of Darmstadt". More useful, was a reply to his son asking in a German magazine if any of his father's brothers were still alive, to which he got the reply "only Peter Haller, großherzoglich hessischer Oberconsistorialkanzlist in Darmstadt, Roßdorferstraße 49".

A search for this Peter Haller reveled his parents were Heinrich Haller and Elisabeth Ahl. While my ancestor Maximilian Joseph Daniel August Haller was listed online as having two different sets of parents and widely reported to have married a Miss Lower, both of whom died in Germany. It appears there was a case of mistaken identity, with there being a Maximilian Joseph Daniel Haller (minus the August) born around the same time.

I'd previously asked a German genealogist to flesh this out, as I am not familiar with the records and can't read those I have found online. But he did not reply after I accepted his terms.

So I hoped I may find some clues in DNA matches. It seems very few Germans have taken tests. But many people from the US, with German ancestry have. So virtually all my deeper German matches are from such people, and thus the common ancestors are born in the 1700s.

Of the matches I found with links to Schuchman, Shookman, I found that there were inconsistencies in the trees, with the common issue of bridging the gap back to Germany and the leavings of novices who botch together trees with anything that comes to hand. After some time I had several relatively close matches going back to Schuchman in Darmstadt and it looked like the common link might be Philipp L Schuchmann (1748) m Anna B Rahmgens. But then I found another line of cousins, more distantly related to those first research,; and these ones had a slightly closer line to my prospective ancestors.

The prospective mother of my Haller ancestor was Anna Sophia Catherine Dielmann, who was a 1st cousin five times removed of the DNA match with the largest cM of 18, with the common ancestors of three DNA matches being Johann Andreas Kilian (1709) m Anna Margarete Ramge; and another 7 came via the parents of Anna Margarete Ramge. The first three had two descents from Ramge.

Offline 4b2

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Re: The Demolished Brick Walls Thread
« Reply #10 on: Monday 18 August 25 14:46 BST (UK) »
(10) When I began tracing my family tree on the night of the 23rd of December 2009, I found my grandmother in the England and Wales Birth Index. The birth was in 1918, and so the mother's maiden name was listed. It was the same as her birth surname. As a complete novice this meant nothing to me. An error, I thought. Her younger sister's birth index entry also had a mother's maiden name listed, and was not the same as the birth surname.

At this time the most recent census available online was the 1901 census. My father didn't know the names of his grandparents, just his aunts and uncles, only one of who was born for the 1901 census, as well as the name of the farm they lived at. That was enough to be able to trace the line.

So I traced my grandmother, as a child of that family, at the same farm. Shortly thereafter my father's cousin, who I'd never met before, turned up at my home. Only I was in. She told me that both my paternal great-grandfather and my paternal grandmother were born out of wedlock. The penny dropped with the same surname as mother's maiden name in the birth index. To my novice shame, at that point (about 1-2 months into research) I'd botched in an invented line from my great-grandfather. The cousin shared ancestry via my great-grandfather, but not my grandmother. Yet my grandmother, when on her death bed, had revealed her niece by marriage that she had been born out of wedlock and raised as a child of her biological grandparents.

Shortly thereafter I purchased the birth certificate of my grandmother, then costing about £7. No father was listed. I found her baptism in the Methodist circuit. No father. I obtained her marriage certificate. No father. I looked up a possible maintenance claim in petty sessions. Nothing.

I had raced through many branches of my tree within months of starting. But was left with three gaping holes:

1) great-grandfather born out of wedlock
2) grandmother born out of wedlock
3) great-grandmother born in India, without a surname or a likely place of birth

6 of 16 gg-grandparents missing (37.5%), and with little hope of ever finding them. It became something of an obsession. To the extent that I contacted map divination practitioners (who refused my requests), and had dreams about the name of my unknown great-grandfather being revealed to me.

My father first took FTDNA in 2013, and I found nothing at all in the matches. In about 2016 my aunt took a test with Ancestry. I looked through the matches, then a complete novice, and didn't see anything of much use.

Later my maternal aunts tested and I had much closer matches that obviously related to the unknown line 3) (above). But at a quick glance, I couldn't see how exactly the matches fitted together.

In early 2023, I began looking at those closer maternal matches, and after a lot of digging got to grips with how you can use DNA, and was able to solve 3).

Returning to 1) and 2) was more difficult. I've outlined in this thread most of what I've found on them. There just wasn't enough matches available. I've been able to determine a few ancestors, but with gaps of two generations. On 1) there is a 92cM match, which I was able to determine from just the name Margaret Evans, when ProTools became available. But it's just too much of a mess to solve at this time.

On 2) I only had matches that looked like 4th cousins, and couldn't really see how to put them together.

When I began going though my matches, I had a 49cM one that I could see had common ancestry in Wigan, which is nowhere near my paternal ancestry, all of which is from the England-Wales border. But as I became more accustomed to working with DNA, I found this 49cM match was clearly relating to my grandmother's unknown father. With a few lines provable back to c. 1700. But attempts to put various groups together were very tentative.

Often, for about two years I check my new matches on Ancestry. It's been very bare of late. I was waiting in a hotel restaurant in Morocco for 8 hours until my flight. I logged on to Ancestry and checked my new matches...


Offline 4b2

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Re: The Demolished Brick Walls Thread
« Reply #11 on: Monday 18 August 25 14:46 BST (UK) »
90cM

"Please let it be on one of my unknown lines!", I pleaded.

My Ancestry subscription has expired, but I could see the preview of three shared matches. It was on my grandmother's unknown Wigan line, with the 49cM match listed first.

I scrambled to subscribe. Spending 20 minutes trying to find where they had hidden the 12 month option.

I hadn't bothered to notice that the match only has one person in his tree. But with an uncommon name, undeterred I put his name in the birth index. One match, within a short drive from Wigan. I found the names of his parents, the father who could be ruled out as being Irish (as per the ethnicity estimate). The mother was a little more tricky as she had quite a common name and no obvious candidate in the birth indexes. But one had a birth index entry with the mother's maiden name - Charnock.

From my looking into the other matches I found that I was very likely a descendant of an Elizabeth Gaskell, b. 1850 in Wigan, out of wedlock ) Though with a father listed on her marriage. I had previously traced her descendants - who had the surname Charnock, or Lee-Charnock. All of the descendants over two generations remained in Wigan, except one family who moved 95 miles to the England-Wales border... 5 miles from where my grandmother was born. So I had assumed that these were good candidates for my grandmother's father, but there wasn't enough evidence.

Now with the new match of 90cM, the glue was there to show how more clusters of matches related. Some time earlier this year I noticed that I had a few likely 4th cousin matches that I'd accidentally filed in the wrong group due to coincidental overlaps and had been written off as unknown. Going through them again I saw there were two clusters that had ancestry from Radnorshire - somewhere I had no known ancestry from. I was aware that the woman who married one of my prospective Charnock ancestors that moved to Wales was from Radnorshire. But these clusters were very difficult, with a few births out of wedlock. And the whole area was difficult to research. However, elbow grease was applied and I found those Radnorshire groups correlated with the co-ordinates of both the Charnock (Wigan) and Radnorshire line. The Charnock husband died in 1908 in a mining disaster, and afterwards the Welsh mother removed to her home region on the Welsh border. And with her sons being 17, 14, and 12 when my grandmother was conceived, it's safe to say it was the oldest one.

15 1/2 years in - the grandmother's mystery father is set to rest. But not surprisingly there are a further three known births out of wedlock on this line. One of those I found last year with the father listed in Lancs. Quarter Sessions and confirmed by DNA. Another is on my grandmother's direct paternal line, an 1846 birth, which is another reason I had trouble placing this line before - fragmentation in the matches, rather than a simple linking of marriages. The other I mentioned already, where a father is listed on a marriage certificate. Though I am not convinced that is the correct man.

It turns out Wigan's favorite son - Richard Ashcroft - is also a descendant of this line. Bosh!

Offline goldfinch99

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Re: The Demolished Brick Walls Thread
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 19 August 25 08:14 BST (UK) »
Good work, 4b2!


Offline SouthseaSteel

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Re: The Demolished Brick Walls Thread
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 19 August 25 10:49 BST (UK) »

Spooky!!!  My 2xGGM was Mary Charnock from near Wigan.  Her mother in law, my 3xGGM, was Ellen Gaskell who was born in North Wales which has always intrigued me as that entire line is resolutely Wigan based going back generations. 

Offline 4b2

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Re: The Demolished Brick Walls Thread
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 19 August 25 11:52 BST (UK) »

Spooky!!!  My 2xGGM was Mary Charnock from near Wigan.  Her mother in law, my 3xGGM, was Ellen Gaskell who was born in North Wales which has always intrigued me as that entire line is resolutely Wigan based going back generations.

It does seem that everyone in old Wigan are related.

Offline goldfinch99

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Re: The Demolished Brick Walls Thread
« Reply #15 on: Monday 01 December 25 16:35 GMT (UK) »
Further to my post on the previous page, I had finally found the 1700s origin location of my Middleton lineage but I could never figure out the correct wife for Robert Middleton born 1786 in Crowle, Lincolnshire who moved to London and had a son, Robert, in 1817.

I've finally got it. I checked marriage records in London and the villages around Crowle. I couldn't fine the right baptism record.  There are some marriage records but further review showed none of them were the right family as Robert 1786 died (according to my tree) in 1821 so any Robert having children after that year could be ruled out.

Then I found a marriage record that I'd seen before and forgotten. The wife's name was Elizabeth Bulgin and then in my DNA I have a family who have a Bulgin line about 5 generations ago. It's weak but ProTools shows them in the right place with common matches and nothing else on their tree seems to fit with mine.

So they descend from Eliz Bulgin's sister and once I'd added their line to my tree, Ancestry popped up with a Common Ancestor going through the line of another sister of Eliz Bulgin, Which I think is strong enough to say I've found my 4th great grandmother on this line! Finally!

Records suggest that Robert and Elizabeth may have had at least one more child, but there's no confirmation in my DNA. As the child's name is Elizabeth and she was born just over a year from the marriage I think she probably is their daughter and there are living descendants for her, which is cool.

Offline 4b2

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Re: The Demolished Brick Walls Thread
« Reply #16 on: Monday 01 December 25 17:47 GMT (UK) »
Further to my post on the previous page, I had finally found the 1700s origin location of my Middleton lineage but I could never figure out the correct wife for Robert Middleton born 1786 in Crowle, Lincolnshire who moved to London and had a son, Robert, in 1817.



Amazing. Great that we can still solve dead-ends going back towards 300 years. As mentioned in one of my posts above, I was able to use DNA to confirm a suspected line of ancestry going back to a man born, say, 1665. It's not typical, but with enough lifting it happens. In his case there are a few apparent gaps in his baptisms, and it's also known he was a merchant on Montserrat in the Caribbean. So my ancestor's baptism probably occurred in Montserrat, for where there are no (surviving) records for that time.

I've been working on another cluster of DNA matches recently, where the largest match is 30cM. In my experience, such clusters tend to be quite distant, and in this case there is probably endogamy, since these were small landowners who sought to keep land within relatives. With such clusters it's more difficult. If the MRCA is more in the late 18th century, then public trees are usually correct. While before that, public trees are either incomplete or highly suspect. So one has to do a lot more leg work, hoping to narrow in on a place and/or surname. In the case of this 30cM cluster, I got many matches with the surname Rogers in a dispersed rural parish. There was one match in the parish, but without Rogers in their tree. Putting in the leg-work to pad out the trees through the 1700s, I found most of the common matches are also descendants of a Dovaston family. This is one of the families that often intermarries with my ancestors related to the above mentioned Montserrat line (Rogers, maybe the same Rogers found in this cluster). But the further back the match is, the fewer coordinates there are to figure out where the match fits in. Most of these more distant clusters are inconclusive.

Offline goldfinch99

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Re: The Demolished Brick Walls Thread
« Reply #17 on: Monday 01 December 25 19:01 GMT (UK) »
I can see some clusters like that in my matches.  I need to start building trees for places where I can see clusters but can't work out the common ancestor. It's getting tougher to make new discoveries in my tree, so doing this and starting a chromosome browser account need to be my New Year goals and see if I can break down some more walls.