Author Topic: Calling Genealogy experts - this one has got me baffled  (Read 1650 times)

Offline Vickihuk

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Re: Calling Genealogy experts - this one has got me baffled
« Reply #18 on: Thursday 19 September 24 08:34 BST (UK) »
If I have the correct one in 1939, it would seem to be the Herbert Hargreaves who married Rachel Snaith in 1910 in Bury - Register Office /Registrar attended.

The couple had several children and can be seen in the 1921 index.

This looks like him in 1911 - although birth year is out slightly

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWB7-5VL

Vickihuk, in case you have not used Family Search, you need to sign in but it is free.

Thank you! Yes, this is 100% my family :)

Offline Vickihuk

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Re: Calling Genealogy experts - this one has got me baffled
« Reply #19 on: Thursday 19 September 24 08:35 BST (UK) »

I then did research on the 1881 census and found information on a whole family from the same area, with William and Alice Hargreaves listed as their parents. On the 1891 census - Herbert appears as a 6 year old boy!


Who is this Herbert living with in 1891?

Debra  :)

Debra - this is an area where I am struggling, I just can't seem to find this

Offline Vickihuk

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Re: Calling Genealogy experts - this one has got me baffled
« Reply #20 on: Thursday 19 September 24 08:46 BST (UK) »
Ok thanks for everyone’s advice. I have now come to the conclusion that I have been looking at the wrong family in the census. I had to order another birth certificate for a different Herbert to confirm this. Turns out there was another Herbert Hargreaves born just a few days before my Herbert!

Ok back to the drawing board.

So I now know, my Herbert was born illegitimately to Alice Hargreaves on Apr 27 1885, in Bury.

He listed William Hargreaves as his Father on his wedding cert to Rachel Snaith - I can only assume that this was a lot to cover up illegitimacy??

My trail runs dead here - I cannot find any other information on census or anything about Alice Hargreaves

Online jorose

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Re: Calling Genealogy experts - this one has got me baffled
« Reply #21 on: Friday 20 September 24 13:56 BST (UK) »
Hi there,

To answer your earlier quesiton, it is common to see a father's name at marriage even when it wasn't on the birth certificate - this could be a stepfather's name, actual bio father's name, grandfather, or just something he'd been told over the years.

Now, as to Hargreaves/Howard - there is a possible marriage in Bury in 1889 for an Alice Hargreaves to a William Howard.  I think this might be them in 1891, with Herbert's age listed as 9 but maybe should be 6.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7HGQ-PN2
The baby William can be found under Howard, the older girl I think was born in 1882 as Rosanna Hargreaves (Rose Hannah/Rosannah/etc)

In later years it seems Herbert is no longer with them.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9KD-PS1
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9KD-PS1

So in this case, he probably listed his father as "William" because it was his stepfather's name, and you may find him using either Hargreaves or Howard on different records.
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline Dundee

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Re: Calling Genealogy experts - this one has got me baffled
« Reply #22 on: Friday 20 September 24 14:21 BST (UK) »
John SNAITH, the son of Rachel (but possibly not Herbert) is with Alice and Rosannah in 1911.  That is why he is crossed off the census with Herbert and Rachel.

Perhaps this birth...

SNAITH, JOHN
No mother's maiden surname    
GRO Reference: 1906  S Quarter in BOLTON  Volume 08C  Page 518

Debra  :)

Offline Vickihuk

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Re: Calling Genealogy experts - this one has got me baffled
« Reply #23 on: Friday 20 September 24 16:51 BST (UK) »
Wow - all I can say is wow you clever people.

That is definitely who I am looking for. I found the birth certificates of all siblings and mothers name is Hargreaves!

I have also ordered the marriage certificate for Alice and William - hopefully that will reveal the next level of the tree.

Now here is a question I may never find the answer to - I wonder if William was Herbert’s father and they were just unmarried at the time. Or… was that is step father.

Thank you all so much - can’t tell you how much this has been bugging me!

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Re: Calling Genealogy experts - this one has got me baffled
« Reply #24 on: Friday 20 September 24 17:15 BST (UK) »
Details on certificates are only as good as the information supplied. It was not at all unusual for a male family member or a completely fictitious person to be named as father on a marriage, simply to conceal illegitimacy.

My mother in law was illegitimate, when she married my father in law there is a blank space where her Father's name would have been. They later divorced and she remarried, on that certificate is the name of the man who was the father in the foster family who brought her up. We know he definitely was not her father as she didn't know who her birth mother was until I ordered her full birth certificate, she only had the shortened version which just gives the child's name, date and town of birth.
CHOULES All ,  COKER Harwich Essex & Rochester Kent 
COLE Gt. Oakley, & Lt. Oakley, Essex.
DUNCAN Kent
EVERITT Colchester,  Dovercourt & Harwich Essex
GULLIVER/GULLOFER Fifehead Magdalen Dorset
HORSCROFT Kent.
KING Sturminster Newton, Dorset. MONK Odiham Ham.
SCOTT Wrabness, Essex
WILKINS Stour Provost, Dorset.
WICKHAM All in North Essex.
WICKHAM Medway Towns, Kent from 1880
WICKHAM, Ipswich, Suffolk.

Offline Vickihuk

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Re: Calling Genealogy experts - this one has got me baffled
« Reply #25 on: Friday 20 September 24 23:43 BST (UK) »
Details on certificates are only as good as the information supplied. It was not at all unusual for a male family member or a completely fictitious person to be named as father on a marriage, simply to conceal illegitimacy.

My mother in law was illegitimate, when she married my father in law there is a blank space where her Father's name would have been. They later divorced and she remarried, on that certificate is the name of the man who was the father in the foster family who brought her up. We know he definitely was not her father as she didn't know who her birth mother was until I ordered her full birth certificate, she only had the shortened version which just gives the child's name, date and town of birth.

Thank you for the advice!

I noticed that you are related to Duncan’s in Kent - I am too, wonder if there is a connection?!