Wills of Islington 1508 not proved at Canterbury

[Watson]

Of possible interest is the following:

The Certificate of Musters for Buckinghamshire in 1522, edited by A.C. Chibnall, Buckinghamshire Record Society, 1973, contains this entry under High Wycombe on page 267:

"Thos. Pime tenaunte to ye colledge of Windesour           £5 -0 -0" [value of lands]

A Thos. Pym is also listed at Great Kimble, on page 91.

[jonwarrn]

FamilySearch has London Commissary Court Index to Will Extracts of the Registered Copy Wills, 1374-1521
The will in question doesn't seem to be there.
There are some possibles mentioned in other wills. They have extracts.
Will of Johnes Knyfe, of London, 1469
Wife Matild (executrix)
Son Thome
Also listed is Thome Pym of Wycombe, Bucks
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3J6-C9HD-H

Johes Cowey, 1476, desires to be buried in Islington.
Thome Knyffe, Son
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3J6-C91Q-K

Thomas Knyff one of the executors named in the will of John Engelond of Iselden, Middx, 1485
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3J6-C9JB-S

Index
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3J6-CFWD

Absracts Films
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/819185

[jonwarrn]

OK, we have a disaster

Looking at the Commissary will abstracts on FamilySearch, they have them for 1489 - 1502
Ending here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3J6-C91K-R

Then on the next image we leap to 1516 - 1521

The LMA say this
Commissary Court of London (London Division), 1374-1857
Surviving records include:
Original wills 1523-1857, with gaps (DL/C/B/005/MS09172) - On Ancestry
Registers of wills 1374-1857, with gaps (DL/C/B/004/MS09171) - must be consulted on microfilm after 1600
Act books 1496-1858, with gaps (DL/C/B/001/MS09168) - must be consulted on microfilm after 1600

And delving further in the LMA catalogue there does appear to be a possible gap in the registers of copy wills (as per the FamilySearch abstracts)
Register of wills 1489-1502, Ref DL/C/B/004/MS09171/008
Registers of wills, 1516-1521, Ref DL/C/B/004/MS09171/009

[jonwarrn]

And again in the LDS catalogue on FamilySearch
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/283866

Probate records, 1374-1857
Church of England. Diocese of London. London Division. Commissary Court
910 microfilm reels (gosh!)

"There are no original or register copy wills for the years 1502-1516"

[Vance Mead]

Even if Thomas Knyff's will can't be found, based on the information in this and other threads, it looks like we have a fairly good biography for him:
- born about 1450, the son of John Knyfe, of St Sepulchre, corser (horse dealer) and Matilda/Maude (will 1469)
- son in law of John Cowey of Islington, married to either Agnes or Elizabeth (will 1476)
- lived in Islington through the 1490s (Common Pleas)
- died by 1508, probably a couple years before that. The case in Common Pleas is somewhat involved and had probably been going on for some time. So, say, died in 1506.

London. Command to the sheriff to take goods that had been of Thomas Knyff, of Iseldon, Middx, gentilman, in the hands of William Darset, of London, gent, and Richard Bayly, of St John Strete, Middx, yeoman, executors of Thomas Knyff, both for a debt of 10 marks which Thomas Ryche, of London, mercer, has recovered against them, and for 36s 8d damages for non-payment of the debt.
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/H7/CP40no983/bCP40no983dorses/IMG_0795.htm

[emjsw]

The Thomas Pym with the will in 1549/50 must be the son or grandson of the one in 1496.

There's a will of Thomas Pym of High Wycombe, 1505

https://shop.buckscc.gov.uk/s4s/WhereILive/Council?pageId=2347&pid=36803787-1a6a-4c46-bbfb-a5ad00f89b6b&supId=c988f85e-be98-4bf3-b184-a5ad00efd350&bcgId=fcea1611-2a26-4a1d-a4a6-b480f7423e14

In 1502 he is Common Pleas:
Pymme, Thomas, of Chepyng Wycombe, yeoman
https://waalt.uh.edu/index.php/CP40no959

And again in Common Pleas, in 1512, with his son:
Pymme, Thomas, son of Pymme, Thomas, senior, of Chepyng Wycombe, Bucks, gent
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/Indices/CP40Indices/CP40no998/CP40no998Def.htm

Hi Vance,

Thanks for this, I think you might be right about Thomas Pymme d 1549 being a grandson, there is a record somewhere of a Thomas Pymme who dies in 1524 and I am currently trying to fin it again, I think this one might be son of Thomas Pymme d.1505 and father of Thomas Pymme d.1549.
Thomas Pymme d.1549 was buried at St Mary's Islington and had his coat of arms on his tombe, dexter Pymme, sinister Porter. The c.1505 Thomas married Katherine Porter, daughter of John. Other than the record I can't find I can find no other evidence for the potential in between 1524 Thomas Pymme.

Perhaps the Thomas who left a will in 1505 is the one mentioned in the common please 1502 and the potential 1524 Thomas is will the 1549 Thomas in the 1512 record.

All the best Emma

[emjsw]

Of possible interest is the following:

The Certificate of Musters for Buckinghamshire in 1522, edited by A.C. Chibnall, Buckinghamshire Record Society, 1973, contains this entry under High Wycombe on page 267:

"Thos. Pime tenaunte to ye colledge of Windesour           £5 -0 -0" [value of lands]

A Thos. Pym is also listed at Great Kimble, on page 91.

Hi Watson,

This is great, thank you, it is really helpful with building up as much information as possible. Thank you very much for your help and the time you have given up to help me.

Best wishes, Emma

[emjsw]

FamilySearch has London Commissary Court Index to Will Extracts of the Registered Copy Wills, 1374-1521
The will in question doesn't seem to be there.
There are some possibles mentioned in other wills. They have extracts.
Will of Johnes Knyfe, of London, 1469
Wife Matild (executrix)
Son Thome
Also listed is Thome Pym of Wycombe, Bucks
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3J6-C9HD-H

Johes Cowey, 1476, desires to be buried in Islington.
Thome Knyffe, Son
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3J6-C91Q-K

Thomas Knyff one of the executors named in the will of John Engelond of Iselden, Middx, 1485
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3J6-C9JB-S

Index
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3J6-CFWD

Absracts Films
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/819185

Hi Jonw65,

This is fantastic, thanks ever so much indeed, I am never quite sure how to access the stuff on Family Search and it was great to see these images. The information contained with in them is really helpful and gives other search access points.

The index is also helpful, I have been trying to find whether any abstracts exist on Family Search for John Knyf 1464 and Johem Knyff 1459 but I don't think it goes back before 1465!

It is such a shame that there is a gap covering the year 1506/8!!!! Thanks for confirming this by looking at the records at LMA also. It is very kind of you to give up your time to do this for me, I really appreciate it.

I once had a situation where there was a gap in the wills proved at the University Court in Oxford, they had been indexed but over time had been lost. In the late 1800s someone had published an index of these wills. The archivist found the original hand written index manuscript and there was a note next to the missing wills to say they had been copied into the Archdeacon's book. The archivist found the book and the wills are found again!!!! I am holding out hope something similar might happen here and have written to the LMA/LA to see if they could look for something similar, you never know.

All the best Emma

[emjsw]

Even if Thomas Knyff's will can't be found, based on the information in this and other threads, it looks like we have a fairly good biography for him:
- born about 1450, the son of John Knyfe, of St Sepulchre, corser (horse dealer) and Matilda/Maude (will 1469)
- son in law of John Cowey of Islington, married to either Agnes or Elizabeth (will 1476)
- lived in Islington through the 1490s (Common Pleas)
- died by 1508, probably a couple years before that. The case in Common Pleas is somewhat involved and had probably been going on for some time. So, say, died in 1506.

London. Command to the sheriff to take goods that had been of Thomas Knyff, of Iseldon, Middx, gentilman, in the hands of William Darset, of London, gent, and Richard Bayly, of St John Strete, Middx, yeoman, executors of Thomas Knyff, both for a debt of 10 marks which Thomas Ryche, of London, mercer, has recovered against them, and for 36s 8d damages for non-payment of the debt.
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/H7/CP40no983/bCP40no983dorses/IMG_0795.htm

Dear Vance,

Thank you for this great summary and positive message, with your help I have so much information about them now and can get a feel for what they might have been like and also have the names of people around them. I am ever so grateful for all of the time you have kindly given in finding all of this information to help me out.

Best wishes,
Emma