Author Topic: how were surgeons trained abut 1800  (Read 1322 times)

Offline kit54

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how were surgeons trained abut 1800
« on: Monday 02 September 24 20:24 BST (UK) »
Hi,

My ancestor was an Assistant Surgeon in the Limerick County Militia from about 1815 to about 1850.

Please, does anyone know how he would have been trained - would he have studied medicine at University? I'd be very grateful for any help or advice on this.

Thanks,

Kit

Offline aghadowey

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Re: how were surgeons trained abut 1800
« Reply #1 on: Monday 02 September 24 20:40 BST (UK) »
This might be of interest- see table of contents for medical training, etc.-
https://rcpi-live-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Sir-Domonic-Corrigan.pdf
"A Nineteenth Century Medical Education
24 May 2010 — The archive collection of Dominic Corrigan, who trained as a doctor in the 1820s, gives a valuable insight into medical training at the time."
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Online KGarrad

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Re: how were surgeons trained abut 1800
« Reply #2 on: Monday 02 September 24 20:51 BST (UK) »
The Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland was founded 1784.

https://www.rcsi.com/about/history
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline Andy J2022

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Re: how were surgeons trained abut 1800
« Reply #3 on: Monday 02 September 24 20:55 BST (UK) »
Interesting as aghadowey's link is, it's worth noting that surgeons and physicians were entirely separate occupations at that time, and surgeons often learnt their craft as apprentices to other surgeons. We still see the remnants of this distinction today in that physicians (doctors) are referred to as doctors because they were university educated, and surgeons are referred to as 'Mr' because their trade derives from the barber surgeons, and frequently, back in earlier centuries, weren't university trained.
That said, the context of the Army, the surgeon in a regiment was almost certainly a medical doctor who might also possess some surgical skills.


Offline Watson

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Re: how were surgeons trained abut 1800
« Reply #4 on: Monday 02 September 24 21:38 BST (UK) »
One of the qualifications was through the Society of Apothecaries in London.  You could follow a course of study which resulted in a LSA (Licentiate of the Society of Apothecaries).  I assume this applied to people in Ireland too.  With a LSA qualification, one could carry out duties similar to that of a modern GP.

Offline Drosybont

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Re: how were surgeons trained abut 1800
« Reply #5 on: Monday 02 September 24 22:21 BST (UK) »
For surgery, practical training under a skilled surgeon and plenty of practice were probably the essentials, but more was possible.  To give an idea of what was available in surgical education and training in the 1820s, this is an extract from the obituary of a Welsh surgeon (Merthyr Times 15 Aug 1895):

"Mr. John Llewellyn, J.P. M.R.C.S (England) and L.S.A. (1830), certificated factory surgeon, medical officer of health, medical officer and vaccinator for Llanishen district of Cardiff Union, Bedwas district of Newport Union, and Caerphilly district of Pontypridd Union, was born in the year 1808, and was therefore, at the time of his death 87 years of age.  He received his earlier education at Cowbridge.  On March 19th, 1824 he was apprenticed to the late celebrated Druid, &c., Dr. William Price, at Nantgarw.  Upon leaving Dr. Price, he proceeded to London, and entered St. Bartholomew’s Hospital, where he underwent the necessary hospital training and studied under such distinguished surgeons as Dr. John P. Vincent, Sir William Lawrence, Bart., and Dr. Henry Earle.  He studied botany and materia medica under Dr. Francis Boott, and midwifery under the renowned Dr. Hopkins, a Welshman.  In May, 1829, he entered the then celebrated Surrey Dispensary and studied there for nine months.  Determined to make the best use of his time, and to become proficient in his profession, he went over the same year to Paris, and attended a course of lectures there.  He was present during the revolution.  From an old document we find he was admitted a member of the College of Surgeons in 1828, during the time that the great Dr. Headington was president.  Leaving London he returned to Wales, and opened a practice in Caerphilly, where his professional skill and learning were soon greatly appreciated, and before very long had worked up one of the finest practices in South Wales."

Drosybont
Hotham, Guilliatt, Brown, Winter, Buck, Webster, Mortimore
Richards, Meredith, Gower, Davies, Todd, Westmacott, Hill
Mid C19 Cardiff and Haverfordwest, the Marychurch family.

Offline kit54

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Re: how were surgeons trained abut 1800
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 03 September 24 19:56 BST (UK) »
Thank you all for your very interesting replies, which are bursting with information and helpful advice, which I will follow up on.

My ancestor was John Hunt, and as far as I can determine, he was born about 1784, but I don't know where. He may not have been born in Ireland.

Several years ago, I contacted The Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, only to be told by them, that they did not have a record for him.

I really would love to find a university record for him, but I'm not sure, at this time, if most universities taught medicine/pharmacology/surgery etc., apart from Edinburgh, and would welcome any information anyone might have on this.

I'd be grateful for any further help,

Many thanks,

Kit




Offline RobertHauteville

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Re: how were surgeons trained abut 1800
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 08 December 24 10:50 GMT (UK) »
In the 1700s Ships' Surgeons mostly learnt their trade "hands on" and university training only became usual in the 1800s. Army Regiments may have had a university educated chief surgeon c.1850 but they still had come from using slightly dodgy Barber-Surgeons. In 1800 very few of the field surgeons would have been university trained.

Offline Elwyn Soutter

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Re: how were surgeons trained abut 1800
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 08 December 24 11:20 GMT (UK) »
There is an Apothecaries Hall of Ireland which has a lengthy history. It is now part of the Royal College of Physicians in Dublin. I contacted their historian some years back about an Apothecary I was researching. The historian told me that though Apothecaries could register with them and they could issue qualification documents, it wasn’t mandatory till the 1850s. Many just trained in an unregistered apprenticeship arrangement. So no records.

Similarly with medical degrees, some attended university but never took their final exams (for which an extra fee was required). It was sufficient that you had attended! Having a degree or equivalent qualification to be a doctor has only been mandatory since around 1858. (Probably not that important as until then a good knowledge of Greek & Latin was viewed as more important than any medical knowledge, to get your degree.).

https://www.thornber.net/medicine/html/mediceducation.html
Elwyn