Author Topic: Brick Wall ancestor Elizabeth Phair b-1858 Ireland  (Read 1336 times)

Offline lolz

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Brick Wall ancestor Elizabeth Phair b-1858 Ireland
« on: Saturday 15 June 24 09:30 BST (UK) »
Hello first post here.
Brick wall ancestor that I have been researching a long time, Elizabeth Whitmore nee Phair. I have been unable to find any info on her parents, apart from her parents names which are on her death certificate (On her wiki tree profile (https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Phair-90).Her Parents are listed as John Phair-Farmer and Elizabeth Kettles, on her death certificate. I believe she was born in Ireland around 1858 (due to a passenger list record on fs) and died in Otahuhu NZ in 1894.

I also believe and am confident that Elizabeth has a sister named Jane Phair https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Phair-94, due to DNA evidence. I have done and searched ancestry, looked on both ireland family history websites and family search but cannot find anything about her or her sisters parents.

This has been a brick wall for some time. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks L
Phair-Ireland, Sandeman genealogy-esp Young, Baxter, Beveridge and Bell family. Dunlop-Ireland, Cowell-Essex, Buckham-england, Sparkes-Norfolk, Thompson-Ireland, Gibson& Martin-Netherlands

Offline shanreagh

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Re: Brick Wall ancestor Elizabeth Phair b-1858 Ireland
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 16 June 24 00:42 BST (UK) »
Welcome to Rootschat.

I am wondering if you have looked at these Irish resources:
irish genealogy https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/

Griffiths Valuation
https://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/

https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/

Are you more or less certain she came from Co Fermanagh?

On some of the records the families are Church of Ireland. Does this tally with your research? CoE is similar to the Anglican Church in NZ.  I note that some of the NZ ones are Methodists/Wesleyans.

Even though these are 1901/11 records I search for the oldest ones recorded.  Then I try to track back & forward to find marriage and death records for these ones. 

Often family first names are used over in records and these can provide leads.



On all of these records there are Phairs/Fairs/Fares etc and Kettle and Kettles. I would look at Kittle/s as well. 

Online Dundee

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Re: Brick Wall ancestor Elizabeth Phair b-1858 Ireland
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 16 June 24 03:50 BST (UK) »
I have been unable to find any info on her parents, apart from her parents names which are on her death certificate

Why are you relying on information on her death certificate?  What does her marriage certificate say about her place of birth, age and parents?

Debra  :)

Online Elwyn Soutter

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Re: Brick Wall ancestor Elizabeth Phair b-1858 Ireland
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 16 June 24 10:04 BST (UK) »
There was a John Phair farming in Tiraroe, Kinawley parish, Fermanagh in 1861. He seems to have had a wife named Eliza who died in 1878, aged 60.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1878/020501/7194164.pdf

He died in 1861:

Letters of Administration of the personal estate of John Phair late of Tiraroe (Terraroo) in the County of Fermanagh, Farmer, deceased who died 27 July 1861 at same place, were granted at Armagh to Eliza Phair of Tiraroe (Derrylin) aforesaid the Widow of said deceased.

Family looks to have been Church of Ireland. They probably attended church in Derrylin. (There are 3 churchess in the parish).

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Drummully/Tiraroe/1357846/

This looks be a son to John & Eliza marrying in 1872 in Lisnaskea Register Office:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1872/11308/8149388.pdf

He died in August 1878:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1878/020501/7194164.pdf

The widow and 2 children are on the farm in the 1901 census.

Birth registration only started in 1864 in Ireland. Prior to that we rely on baptism records, where they exist. The Kinawley Church of Ireland records are probably not on-line anywhere but there is a microfilm copy in PRONI in Belfast. The records start in the 1760s. They may tell you whether this is the right family.
Elwyn


Offline lolz

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Re: Brick Wall ancestor Elizabeth Phair b-1856 Ireland
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 16 June 24 10:59 BST (UK) »
Thankyou very much for your replies, super helpful. I will have to look into the John Phair from Tiraroe, haven't come accross him before.

I have checked out all the irish rescources before and had no luck. Definately deserve a second look as there may be something I missed.

I rely on her death certificate as it's the only source I can find that names her parents, and one of the only sources I can find on her, that provides valuable info. I am pretty sure she is from  Fermanagh due to a passenger list on family search. It ties in with the death certificate as she was 24 years old when she came to nz in 1880, 27 when she married in 1883 and when she died in 1894, She had been in NZ for 14 years. Which makes her DOB 1856 instead on 58. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FS13-YZ8.

Phair-Ireland, Sandeman genealogy-esp Young, Baxter, Beveridge and Bell family. Dunlop-Ireland, Cowell-Essex, Buckham-england, Sparkes-Norfolk, Thompson-Ireland, Gibson& Martin-Netherlands

Online Elwyn Soutter

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Re: Brick Wall ancestor Elizabeth Phair b-1858 Ireland
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 16 June 24 19:51 BST (UK) »
Nearly all the Phairs in Fermanagh were Church of Ireland (judging by the 1901 census). Be aware that many Church of Ireland records are not on-line. If she is from Kinawley you might need to pay a researcher to go to PRONI to look the records up. You should also know that about 40% of the Church of Ireland’s records were lost in the 1922 fire in Dublin, so another possibility is that there is no longer a record to find. But fortunately Kinawley’s records have survived and can be searched. Just not on-line.

Re the age, errors on death certificates are common as often the informant didn’t have all the relevant information. A marriage certificate is more likely to be accurate but even then people had their reasons for not giving totally accurate information. A common reason for age discrepancies was they didn’t actually know how old they were. They normally didn’t celebrate birthdays in Ireland in the 1800s. If officialdom asked for an age or date of birth it was common just to guess or make a date up.

Alexander Irvine was born in 1863 in Antrim town and became a Minister living in the US. This extract from his book “The Chimney Corner revisited” perhaps explains why people often had to guess their ages:

My mother kept a mental record of the twelve births. None of us ever knew, or cared to know, when we were born. When I heard of anybody in the more fortunate class celebrating a birthday I considered it a foolish imitation of the Queen’s birthday, which rankled in our little minds with 25th December or 12th July. In manhood there were times when I had to prove I was born somewhere, somewhen, and then it was that I discovered that I also had a birthday. The clerk of the parish informed me.”
Elwyn

Offline gaffy

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Re: Brick Wall ancestor Elizabeth Phair b-1858 Ireland
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 16 June 24 22:22 BST (UK) »
Further to Elwyn's reply #3, the 'Fermanagh Gold' website search engine brings back an entry for a marriage in Lisnaskea Church of Ireland on 23 October 1840 (PRONI ref: PRONI MIC 1/73/1), between John Fair of Tarraroo (Tiraroe), Parish of Kinawley and Elizabeth Kettle, Parish of Aghalurcher.  They were married by Alexander Hurst and the witnesses were Robert Garritt and Matthew Swindle.

You can see this entry yourself at the following link, just type +Fair +Kettle +Tiraroe into the query box:

https://search.fermanagh-gold.com/api/v1/search


Offline gaffy

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Re: Brick Wall ancestor Elizabeth Phair b-1858 Ireland
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 16 June 24 22:34 BST (UK) »
The Tithe Applotment Books include about ten Kettles in Fermanagh, two of these in the parish of Aghalurcher (year reference is 1833):

- William Kettle in the townland of Carrickmacosker;
- Robert Kettle in the neighbouring townland of Kilronan.

https://www.townlands.ie/fermanagh/magherastephana/aghalurcher/carrickmacosker/carrickmacosker/


Online Elwyn Soutter

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Re: Brick Wall ancestor Elizabeth Phair b-1858 Ireland
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 16 June 24 22:34 BST (UK) »
Further to Elwyn's reply #3, the 'Fermanagh Gold' website search engine brings back an entry for a marriage in Lisnaskea Church of Ireland on 23 October 1840 (PRONI ref: PRONI MIC 1/73/1), between John Fair of Tarraroo (Tiraroe), Parish of Kinawley and Elizabeth Kettle, Parish of Aghalurcher.  They were married by Alexander Hurst and the witnesses were Robert Garritt and Matthew Swindle.

You can see this entry yourself at the following link, just type +Fair +Kettle +Tiraroe into the query box:

https://search.fermanagh-gold.com/api/v1/search

Gaffy,

Great find. I think we have the right family!
Elwyn