A little wall to knock down

[stormswift]

I wonder if anyone can help point me in the direction of places / things I can search for to help prove a link to parents.

My 3x Gt Grandparents are John Green and Susannah Holt both born around 1810 in Birmingham. I have been able to trace their children and beyond through to my gandparents and parents using your basic BMD's and censuses.

The problem I have is in locating parents for John Green. His marriage is in 1831 and at that time Handsworth, St Mary entries didn't include fathers names. Added to the fact that he died in Dec of 1841 the census entries are also not much help.
I have, however traced their six children. From their first born before the marriage and baptized as having a single parent through to the last born in Middlesex the year John died. This helped me trace the 1841 census entry for the couple with the children seperate but in the same street/housing block. The GRO entries for the last two children give the mothers surname so helping with the marriage entry.
The family moved to Middlesex from Birmingham between 1838 and 1840 as all the children where born in Birmingham or at least baptized there apart from the last one in Middlesex. Susannah and the children returned to Birmingham after John's death as can be found the subsequent census entries.

So nothing to point to parentage for John. The only thing that I have so far found is an age for him. The census I find a little ambiguous, especially the 1841. His death cert at the GRO has his age at death as 31.5 years old. This possible gives a birth around June 1809.

I have found an interesting baptism that matches the potential date. It is a Non conformist baptism in Sep. 1809 giving a birthdate of 6 June 1809. This leads to a family, parents and siblings also baptised at the same place. This I had hoped would lead to further lines to trace down for a possible link. Unfortunately though there was one brother three sisters and a step sister but none of them married. I have traced them in the census through to their deaths and the line's die with them. Perhaps this is why I'm having so much difficulty pinning down parents.

Does anyone know how I can go about finding anything that could prove this link

Regards Steve

[mckha489]

Have you been able to identify the witnesses to their marriage?
C.Williams who signed
And Maria Groves who marked

(John & Susannah also marked)

[Andy J2022]

Hi Steve,

 I have no direct suggestions but just wanted to clarify two of your statements. You say that both John and Susannah were born in Birmingham. Is this just based on the 1841 Census or do have another source to corroborate this?

Secondly, have you seen the actual page from the parish register which fails to show his father's name or are you relying on a transcript? I assume from mckha's comment that an image of the register is available. Does the parish marriage register says whether John was 'of this parish'. Have you tried looking for the banns? Sorry if this all sounds patronising, but I am just trying to eliminate other options like trying to find the Bishop's Transcript for the marriage.

Do you know John's occupation? If he was a man with a trade there may be an apprenticeship record, or if he was earning reasonable wage and paying enough rent he may have been eligible to vote in the borough,  and possibly parliamentary, elections so would appear in an electoral register (long shot I have to admit).

Have you compiled a list of all the John Greens born within the Birmingham area, (or preferably the whole of Warwickshire) for 2/3years either side of 1810, which you can follow up in the 1841 census to eliminate all or at least many of the others? In 1810 the population of Birmingham was still relatively small at around 100,000, but that population was fairly mobile as the new industries began to spring up, so there's no guarantee that John's parents originally came from Birmingham. And if he was their first born child his mother might well have returned to her mother's home to have the child. This was quite common at that time as it was safer to give birth that way than rely on a local, probably unqualified, midwife in a strange town.

[stormswift]

Have you been able to identify the witnesses to their marriage?
C.Williams who signed
And Maria Groves who marked

(John & Susannah also marked)

I haven't found either. Not sure how I would with just names

[stormswift]

Hi Steve,

 I have no direct suggestions but just wanted to clarify two of your statements. You say that both John and Susannah were born in Birmingham. Is this just based on the 1841 Census or do have another source to corroborate this?

Secondly, have you seen the actual page from the parish register which fails to show his father's name or are you relying on a transcript? I assume from mckha's comment that an image of the register is available. Does the parish marriage register says whether John was 'of this parish'. Have you tried looking for the banns? Sorry if this all sounds patronising, but I am just trying to eliminate other options like trying to find the Bishop's Transcript for the marriage.

Do you know John's occupation? If he was a man with a trade there may be an apprenticeship record, or if he was earning reasonable wage and paying enough rent he may have been eligible to vote in the borough,  and possibly parliamentary, elections so would appear in an electoral register (long shot I have to admit).

Have you compiled a list of all the John Greens born within the Birmingham area, (or preferably the whole of Warwickshire) for 2/3years either side of 1810, which you can follow up in the 1841 census to eliminate all or at least many of the others? In 1810 the population of Birmingham was still relatively small at around 100,000, but that population was fairly mobile as the new industries began to spring up, so there's no guarantee that John's parents originally came from Birmingham. And if he was their first born child his mother might well have returned to her mother's home to have the child. This was quite common at that time as it was safer to give birth that way than rely on a local, probably unqualified, midwife in a strange town.

The marriage is on Ancestry in their Birmingham Parish records. Yes they are both of this parish with Susannah also quoting Birmingham as a birth place if subsequent censuses 1851 - 1871. These are under the name Scott as she remarried in 1845 to a Frederick Whittington Scott.

John appears to have been a Gilt toy maker in his earlier years and then a Button Maker in London. Interestingly the family Im trying to link to, Joseph the proposed father his 2nd marriage has a marriage transcription that mentions his occupation as a Steel Toy Maker.

I've not compiled a list of John Green's. Would I not hit the same problem in trying to link them to parents. A lot of early parish entries don't have a fathers name on marriages

Steve

[trish1120]

I note that Sarah was Joseph Greens 2nd Wife on bapts and on Daug Louisas 25 May 1813 note has;
Joseph GREEN died 24 Oct 1812.


Have you looked for a Will for Sarah Green to see if she mentions Grandchildren?
Or possibly one for Joseph?

There is money in the Family from Census as Sarah is Independent so I would think someone left a Will.

[stormswift]

I note that Sarah was Joseph Greens 2nd Wife on bapts and on Daug Louisas 25 May 1813 note has;
Joseph GREEN died 24 Oct 1812.


Have you looked for a Will for Sarah Green to see if she mentions Grandchildren?
Or possibly one for Joseph?

There is money in the Family from Census as Sarah is Independent so I would think someone left a Will.

You are right in that. Joseph's first marriage yielded a daughter. The step daughter mentioned above. Her name was Sally Emerson Green. She is mentioned in Joseph's will, a rather large 5page one. His father a brother and sister also mentioned. His children by the second marriage are not mentioned by name. I'll have to look tonight but I sure they were all left the rents if 11properties. The children can be found in later censuses as living of them.

Steve

[trish1120]

How frustrating children from second Marriage are not mentioned by name in the Will